Wong on Dice

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by DeMango, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. DeMango, Oct 18, 2016

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Ever since Bob Dancer interviewed Stanford Wong several years ago there have been a bunch of uncircumcised Philistines, who claim that Stanford changed his mind about DI, that he no longer believed in it. Here is a recent interview by Michael Shackleford, the wizard of odds, who asked for clarifications on the subject. Here is his Stanford's reply:
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    My opinion on whether craps can be beaten is basically unchanged, except that I now accept that I am not one of the people who can beat the game. I am short on coordination, and now arthritis is taking its toll. I agree that the average person should not pay for lessons and should not invest time and money at crap tables in an attempt to beat the game. But if instead of an average person you are asking about a good athlete, then I’d answer that a person with exceptional coordination could learn to get an edge at craps. People I have known who have the physical gifts to beat craps have typically looked at the game and decided they would rather make money doing something else.
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    So there you have it! I have always used the 95 mph fastball pitcher analogy. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done!

    https://latestcasinobonuses.com/news/interviews/interview-with-stanford-wong
     
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  2. Settingcanthurt, Oct 18, 2016

    Settingcanthurt

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    Laughable
     
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  3. basicstrategy777, Oct 18, 2016

    basicstrategy777

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    The pitcher doesn't have to hit the pyramids to get it over the plate.

    777
     
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  4. Craps Poopshoot, Oct 18, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    Even a MLB pitcher will only have a short window in their life where they can achieve this sort of pitch. Stanford is spot on, in that any sort of Dice Control is going to take exceptional coordination, such as a person who can pitch the ping pongs in to the beer cups at O'shays with uncanny accuracy. Even so, any sort of Dice Control achieved will only occur in optimal conditions and for brief times. No MLB pitcher can throw 95 mph fastballs all day long!

    An edge in a casino games requires that it be persistent through the duration of all your betting, and how you bet is very important.

    In my humble opinion, I highly skeptical that a person who claims to be a DI can belly up to any table, any place, at any time, and declare to have an edge for the game. However, this seems to be the claim that the DI salesmen make to get students butts in seats for their seminars. Absurd? Of course it is, and I also think it is a scam as well.

    It is true that I know people who are exceptionally coordinated and physically fit in all ways who have a keen eye-hand ability. They have an amazing ability with the dice and can set, roll and hit the targeted numbers. But like any ability, it wavers depending on their health at the moment, their state of mind and interest in the game. Stanford is right that many who posses the physical ability to attain an edge with Craps can make far more money doing something else; like professional sports. And, lets face it... the casino lifestyle is not for everyone.
     
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  5. TDVegas, Oct 18, 2016

    TDVegas

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    I really don't care how coordinated you are. Once those square, hard edged plastic dice bounce and bounce against the pyramids...any skill has left the building.

    The pitching analogy would be the pitcher has to bounce the ball to the catcher...only it's a square ball and he first has to bounce it against rubberized pyramids. Good luck hitting the catcher mitt.

    Same for golf. Make the entire green rubberized pyramids and see what happens.

    Plus...you have to get a certain face of the dice to land up after bouncing and gyrating.

    Common sense, visuals...tell you no flucking way.
     
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  6. Onautopilot, Oct 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Interviews, and opinions will never validate DI, nor will it disprove it!

    There is one way, and one way only, to establish a confidence level that verifies that someone is actually gaining an advantage at DI practice.

    That one way is demonstration, either as an attempt at proof, or an individual confirmation. This involves actual casino roll data, accumulated and an analysis of that data that shows the confidence level achieved.

    Some DI's, a few, have indicated they have done that, or are doing that, but no public demonstration has been done yet that passes the "confidence level" test....at least I know of none.
     
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  7. Linaway, Oct 18, 2016

    Linaway

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    All naysayers need to cease the lip music and prove to themselves beating the dice fair or biased is doable.

    DI as a user becomes longer in the tooth will become a fantasy. The body won't cooperate. Yet there is always other ways to skin a kitty without getting scratched.

    Here is a new abbreviation for you piranha to feed on.

    DR.
    Of all that will scoff, it's a simple abbreviation I use. Dice Reader. Demango perhaps is capable of using this moniker. As for the rest of you, the jury is still out on your bone chucking ability and knowing what to do with a dice outcome.

    You see, Demango and others with a similar background have done their homework. Are they a PHD of dice chucking, I don't know. It isn't necessary that I should know.

    PSST! Perhaps Wong needs to read my post on Handicapped Players and Shooters.

    Maybe the nonbelievers need to read the old children book about the engine that could. Then go skin the cat.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
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  8. Liman

    Liman Member

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    wasn't this wong guy like the DI guru that everyone thought was a god at DI?
     
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  9. Onautopilot, Oct 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    That is an interesting observation, would you care to explain the methods one would use to reverse the negative expectation of the game with "fair" dice in play?
     
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  10. Onautopilot, Oct 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Wong sells stuff....whatever is the "product" of interest at the time.
     
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  11. Onautopilot, Oct 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    There are thousands and thousands of craps players, all trying to beat the game. It is inevitable that there are some that will offer to show them how to do it.......how to turn lead into gold, for payment in gold in advance.

    I have been advised on here, to prove to myself that the game can be beat.

    It's been suggested that I take a DI class, and pay for it, maybe as much as $1,200 or more. That maybe I should buy the Wizards Dice talk...not sure how much everything there costs. That I should buy all the books that tout winning strategies.....and a multitude of other "holy grail" products.

    But none of the above have been proven to accomplish what is offered, none......and none ever will be proven!

    I'll be first in line to buy any of them if the proof is offered....but then there will be no craps games to play, or the rules will be changed, if any of them really work.

    Prove it to myself?

    I pretty much have done that with logical, and critical thinking!
     
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  12. Dave G Ct, Oct 18, 2016

    Dave G Ct

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    Wong has always been a 90 day wonder with suspect skills and lazy as a dog on an August afternoon.Great Black Jack player though.
     
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  13. TDVegas, Oct 18, 2016

    TDVegas

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    Fair dice...2 methods to overcome house edge (truly "beating" the game):
    -cheat
    -dice influence

    There ain't no other way assuming a random game. If you are saying it isn't random...you're gonna have to cite some evidence beyond anecdotal. Real, table evidence and not something invented in the lab.

    Now...winning in craps?--that's a different story:
    Luck helps. In fact some "studies" show there can be net ahead gamblers in craps. It's a tiny fraction and likely involves low house edge betting..but nonetheless, it can happen. When one puts hours to profit....it's likely a negligible amount regardless.

    The guy playing today...for the first time in his life...wins. He's net ahead. He's beat the game in some eyes...although I wouldn't characterize it as "beating the game". He won today works better.

    Certainly no one can rely on regular wins or count on the craps table to put food on the table...although there are some martingale plays that will have a better winning percentage. The only problem there is the eventual catastrophic loss.

    Craps has such a thin margin. In that sense it's a great game. Trust me...I would be first on the line if someone could show me how the game and house edge could be beat. Someone telling me I'll show you how to toss isn't showing me how the game can be beat. He's simply showing me his toss.

    Results, baby...everything else is bluster.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  14. Craps Poopshoot, Oct 18, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    Stanford Wong (not his real name) is considered an authority on casino gaming. His book 'Wong on Dice' enforced the Dice Control methods, then later on the Bob Dancer show he retracted his Condorcet of Dice Control, this being the same thing Dave G Ct is accusing me of doing.

    Dave, do you personally know Stanford Wong, and where you present when he was doing this investigations of Dice Control?

    Here is where Stanford Wong speaks about dice control
     
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  15. TDVegas, Oct 18, 2016

    TDVegas

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    I still contend that no one is selling or offering to show others what can be used to beat the craps table....always will. Guys can bang that drum until they are blue...there's simply no logical reason to sell what works for you. Now, if you encounter issues like card counters did...you might have to resort to selling, but as far as craps goes...none are in the black book.

    If this "dice speak" works on a craps table...it should work anywhere on any surface as it seems to be about recognizing the previous roll results. I should be able to use "dice speak" by dropping 2 dice from the kitchen table. I've never heard of anything about toss technique as part of "dice speak"...maybe consistency, but that's about it. I can be consistent from the kitchen table. I still say it will be a random result--whether the dice are speaking Swahili, German or Mandarin.
     
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  16. Linaway, Oct 18, 2016

    Linaway

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    In simplicity, fair dice will allow longer rolls whereas bad dice don't.

    I personally have options to use when I find bad dice which is not for public viewing. More kitty skinning. I don't like getting scratched.
     
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  17. Liman

    Liman Member

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    it never ceases to amaze me.
    these guys write books and base it on facts that cannot be proven, yet, so many go out and purchase those books and treat these people like the almighty.
    fucking ridiculous.
    although Ive glanced through books on gambling in local libraries, and purchased a small kit from heavy way back when, Ive never read anything about craps and didn't know who these authors were until I started looking around the internet.
    who gives them credibility? answer, the dreamers, the myth believers.
    how easy is it to see the casinos are winning, just look at them and the salaries they support. it baffles me when people think they found a way to beat a casino at a game that is basically unbeatable, (yes, there are lucky people on this planet, and maybe by some miracle they win a little more than they lose, Im a lucky person, been playing this game for almost 40 years, not ahead, but never got hurt)
    every time I play, me and most realize if we get a lucky 20 minutes, we go home that day a winner.
    the CASINOs are thrilled we won. Best advertisement on earth for them, better than any author, better than any promotion they can give away.

    yet, people keep elevating these authors and internet wahoos up to superstar status and swear by them.
    then theres the outright scamsters who sell shit that they know isn't useful, but know theres a sucker born every minute, so they prey on the gullible

    what could be clearer?

    has anyone ever driven outside of las vegas and see all there is mostly 1000s of miles of dirt.
    but there stands a city made out of glass and steel, a city that offers everything and anything, nothing is taboo, and it all exists on the house edge.

    how do people keep paying money for the shit that is published without any proof or documentation to back up their claims. unbelievable. simply incredible.
     
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  18. Linaway, Oct 18, 2016

    Linaway

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    Ah "little man",

    There you go again with your moronic personal opinions. You again damning something you know absolutely nothing about.

    To begin with, Dice Speak has nothing to do with table surfaces. It's an ability to read die faces and understand what they mean.

    Best you buy a book on Dice Operating Instructions. Heavy will be glad to sell you one along with After Glow fees.

    Until you get on a table, actually handle the dice and get away from the slots, you will never understand or have a credible opinion about dice outcomes.
     
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  19. DeMango, Oct 18, 2016

    DeMango

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    This is exactly the interview, those without imagination and talent jumped on several years ago. When I posted this thread, I expected the naysayers to come out in full force especially you and TD. You short sighted people never let me down. You should read what Wong wrote in the original book about the back wall. Nope, do the homework your self.

    One must realize that 99% of AP opportunities are simply taking advantage of situations that happen that you apply money to positive expected value and profit ensues. Pure mathematics. Craps require more than that and those that fall short, howl the most. Sucks to be them.
     
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  20. DeMango, Oct 18, 2016

    DeMango

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    Liman; Thank you for your comment. Sometimes people come to a conclusion without all the facts. That would be you. I can tell you that computer programs exist that would let you know if you have any influence on the dice. That is all you need to know.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
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