What about the Backwall?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by tabletop123, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. KokomoJoe4, Sep 27, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    On the one hand, there's common sense. On the other, there is a combination of gullibility and hope. Why wouldn't an entrepreneurial type make a buck where he could by teaching something that isn't teachable? This is reward without risk, unlike gambling.

    Not that there are three hands, but it goes without saying, and we have all seen it, that some people shoot better than others. In fact, the "results" some show with decent consistency are in my mind the best way to sell a skill one might have. Good luck convincing all potential clients. No one shoots that well.
     
    #41
  2. Harley, Oct 2, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Here is another Slow Motion Video of a nice looking on-axis toss ... and if anyone has seen Heavy toss, you know this toss on this video is better than Heavy's toss .... The point is that the dice splatter not only when they hit the table surface but again when they hit the rubber diamonds proving that the stats calculated in Bonetracker's On-Axis percentages are bogus:

     
    #42
  3. $nakeEye$, Oct 3, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Harley -

    Granted KogaNinja has an extremely looking excellent toss -

    The dice are ' sticking together ' in mid-air like they were a glued-up dice barrel -

    However, MY observation is that he is landing TOO FAR AWAY from the base of the back wall -

    As a direct result of THAT -

    The dice have NO WHERE ELSE to go -

    Except into the diamond pyramid rubber -

    WHERE they are then RANDOMIZED -

    Which is THE SOLE PURPOSE of the pyramids -

    I would like to see the results of his toss when he lands them at the base of the back wall -

    Where the " Rubber Meets the Road / Felt " !

    I am certain then and - ONLY THEN - the random results will diminish !

    " Been There and Done That " !

    $...eE..$
     
    #43
  4. superrick, Oct 3, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    All you have to do is get a slow motion camera and take some videos of your shooting, its going to be a real eye opener for you! Please post when you are done with your videos!
     
    #44
  5. $nakeEye$, Oct 3, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    superrick -

    Fact of the matter is - I DO have an extremely efficient slo-motion camera -

    Same as BigBen owns - bought them together -

    BUT - as I have downloaded and read the instruction manual -

    Have as of YET to utilize this $400 + puppy ! -

    Maybe some day , maybe ......................

    When I do - I will post the videos -

    Be they Good, Bad, Ugly or Indifferent ! -

    Regardless, the LESS scatter / roll-out when the dice hit the felt -

    The BETTER the results could be -

    BECAUSE then the dice have less tendency to go OFF-AXIS !

    DUH !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    $...eE..$
     
    #45
  6. Harley, Oct 3, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    $nakeEye$ - Are you talking about a DeadCat toss that doesn't bounce back on the felt either after it hits the pyramids - LoL - yea right .... That only happens in Mad Professor's Fiction Land or maybe 1 in 30 tosses - Good Luck with that and you know that kind of toss will bring "heat" in most casinos so why bother with something that is more theory than reality
     
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  7. superrick, Oct 3, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    To start with you have to be willing to open your eyes, the simple fact is the dice do not stay on axis while they are bouncing all over the place. You might fool yourself into thinking they do because you never saw your on throw in slow motion!


    From that first nano second where the dice touchdown, they are now changing directions and bouncing all over the place. Then you have what happens after they hit the back wall, that's a different story, not only are they now bouncing all over the place, they also just went through a direction change in their rotation! The camera is not going to lie to you, but your eyes will.


    It's about time that you find out what is really happening when you make a shot and not go by what the so-called experts are telling you, so they can sell you one more refresher course to take!
     
    #47
  8. $nakeEye$, Oct 3, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    OK -

    I respond to HIM -

    AND YOU respond to ME -

    WTF -

    Is this a tag-team endeavor -

    Apparently neither one of you can get your act together independently !

    And, FYI - I have been doing that since day 1 -

    And have become extremely adept at landing the dice at the juncture of the back wall and the felt -

    Perhaps, you should try it some time -

    It just might open your eyes regards the ' biased dice ' theory that you incessantly rant about !

    Just MY opinion !

    $...eE..$
     
    #48
  9. KokomoJoe4, Oct 3, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    In support of what Rick has been stating for months, even though he shot a hard four from the hardways set, if you look at the outcome in the video, the final result is SITTING IN THE 2V. off-axis, lol. A handsome toss, in spite of this........................
     
    #49
  10. $nakeEye$, Oct 3, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Obviously -

    Between SR and Harley -

    Both of you guys are advocating the ' Little Joe ' toss - OFF-AXIS throws -

    Where THEY advocate - " The Diamonds are Your FRIENDS " -

    That BS might have worked for Marilyn Monroe - but - it does NOT work on the craps table -

    Sorry guys - I do NOT buy into your beliefs !

    $...eE..$
     
    #50
  11. superrick, Oct 3, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    It all boils down to one thing, the dice do not stay on axis, you can prove it to yourself with the slow motion videos, it will be funny to see what happens when you see what your dice really do. I don't care if anybody takes a school. The more losers on the craps tables the better it is for us.

    The one thing you don't understand is that I always tell players that they are way better off taking a class then trying to do what they see others doing without understanding what is really happening. That could be an on axis or off axis class. I still have a link to Heavy's board on the board that I help run. It's been there since 2010! You will also find Dice Coach and the Little Joe craps school.

    You can take your pick, remember I don't sell anything. Common sense should tell you that the dice can not stay on axis, but here in the good old USA, everybody has thrown common sense right out the door. They are only looking for that pie in the sky!

    http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/about6.html

    I really don't care if you ever take the time to see what your shots are doing, that's your lost. The trouble with that is that you will try to convince others that your dice are staying on axis when they are not! Sure they may end up with the numbers you want to see, but the reality is they did not stay on axis!
     
    #51
  12. KokomoJoe4, Oct 4, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    I really don't care if you ever take the time to see what your shots are doing, that's your lost. The trouble with that is that you will try to convince others that your dice are staying on axis when they are not! Sure they may end up with the numbers you want to see, but the reality is they did not stay on axis! [/QUOTE]



    Rick is correct. I say again to look at the video. Stop it to look at the outcome of each roll.

    All starting sets are hardway. Results are 2V hard four, X6 nine, and 3V five.

    The last result, a hard six, depending on one's interpretation, is either in 3V or hardways,

    Best case scenario is one on-axis but permuted result (3/5:3:2), but possibly 0 for 4
     
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  13. Linaway, Oct 4, 2014

    Linaway

    Linaway Member

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    Rick is correct. I say again to look at the video. Stop it to look at the outcome of each roll.

    All starting sets are hardway. Results are 2V hard four, X6 nine, and 3V five.

    The last result, a hard six, depending on one's interpretation, is either in 3V or hardways,

    Best case scenario is one on-axis but permuted result (3/5:3:2), but possibly 0 for 4[/QUOTE]


    SHHHHH! Do you hear that? Now take note that Kokomojoe4 has actually read the dice and knows what they had to say.

    DAMN STRAIGHT, DICE DO TALK! KKJOE4 is the only member on this board I have actually seen where the dice outcomes have been properly addressed. If indeed DI is on the demise, learning about the most lucrative or devastating part of the game might well be the next level of craps play. That will be through knowledge of dice properties. Ultimately it all begins and ends with them.
     
    #53
  14. superrick, Oct 4, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    The human mind can be easily tricked into seeing something that isn't happening. We want to believe that we are doing something that were not doing. We can see things that are not happening if the out come is what we want.

    DI's spend countless hours practicing their shooting. They are only looking at the top two numbers on the dice and want to prove to the world that they are special. There just like a magician that is using sleight of hand to fool their audience. Everything happens so fast that they can convince their peers that they just pulled off the perfect shot! It's especially easy for them to do this after paying thousands of dollars to take classes in becoming a DI.

    The slow motion videos tell the real story, don't kid yourself into thinking that your special, learn to cold hard fact that your dice are not staying on axis. It will help you win at the craps tables, learn what the dice are telling you, by looking at everything the dice are telling you. It all starts with the two dice you pick out of the bowl. Your shooting comes second, don't be tricked by the dice and your brain.

    I think that one of the most important things any shooter can do is look at their shooting in slow-motion, it will change the way you are betting the game! I already know that the best looking shot I ever made turned out to be a seven out,... when it should have been a four or ten! From the first time I heard about on axis shooting I said it couldn't be done. But way back then we couldn't buy a slow-motion camera, to see what was really happening. As one of the DI's that I highly respected said (Wake Up Crap Shooters And Join the Dice Revolution) That quote was used by Charles C. Westcott the original owner of the diceInstitute better known as Charlie009 in one of his books on becoming a DI.

    The diceInstitute used to be a great craps board, you had guys like clubsodakenny, that would show up after the golf season was over with, there were plenty of other guys, but right know I can't remember their names! That was before all of the fiction turned that board into a joke!

    If you want to win at playing craps it's important that you know the truth as to what's happening with your dice!
     
    #54
  15. BigBen, Oct 4, 2014

    BigBen

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    Happy Saturday!
    OK, with ALL due respect fellas, here's what I'm not understanding, as far as "Reading The Dice" goes...

    NOW, the claim is that the dice are not staying On Axis, because once they hit the Deck and/or Back-Wall all hell breaks loose, as far as the bones staying On Axis, right?
    OK, I understand your point on that.
    And I also agree, that just by looking at the Top Pips (the end result), doesn't reveal the WHOLE story.

    Now my question becomes:
    How can someone "Read The Dice" after they hit the Deck and/or BW, because each and every toss is going to be different?
    AND that's because the bones will hit the Deck and/or BW with the smallest amount of differences, with respect to trajectory, angles, finger pressure, etc., etc..
    Therefore, HOW can someone actually "Read The Dice" properly, because each and every toss is totally different?

    So UNLESS someone is purely touting "Biased Dice" then I can't see how someone can "Read The Dice".
    and even WITH "Biased Dice", each toss will not be the exact same.
    Ya know what I mean???


    Most of you already know I've been playing this game for nearly 35 years (my DI journey started 7 or 8 years ago), and some of you also know what Craps equipment that I have, and how I use it.

    With that being said...
    I look at each toss's outcome during Practice AND in Live Play, and I make mental notes of how they are vs. how they STARTED in my hand (pre-toss).
    So I'll see if they are rotating on/off Axis, Pitching a certain way, Single/Double Pitching, or what have you.
    That way, adjustments can be made Mid-Hand in Live Play.
    Several of our Board members have seen my shooting, and have seen what I do in "Live Play".

    BUT, again, how is it even possible to "Read 'Em", UNLESS each and EVERY toss is identical, OR someone is preaching "Biased Dice"???

    Believe me Gentlemen, if this idea is going to help us WIN, then I'm all for it, and I'll listen with both ears!
    Now PLEASE give me some good news! :D

    If you don't want to post it here, then feel free to PM or E-Mail "Uncle Ben". ;) :D

    BB
     
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  16. SevenOut, Oct 4, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Do not blame the dice. Blame your System and your Bankroll Management. They are most important.

    Take a pair of dice. Glue the pair together with hardways showing. What, with your skill of DI, are the odds that you can throw the Hard Eight the first time? If you did, the second and so on. Even with the dice glued together the 3 to 1 odds will beat you. Now... if you wagered on all four hardways at the SAME time, you are using a smart System and Bankroll Managment.

    Now. Take this same pair, orientate them the same BUT drill a hole through them so they can spin on AXIS. How have the percentages of outcomes... changed?

    Now. Take this same pair of dice, loose and toss them into a flat wall or diamond wall on a Craps Table. Now you have totally random odds.

    Which works out best? How can two dice be controlled without physical restraints to narrow down possible outcomes? They cannot. Can you predict which side will be up setting a die balancing upon one corner on a perfectly flat surface to fall? No. Because if you can, it was not perfectly balanced and who decides which way to disturb this balance? The DI? Maybe.

    Can it be done with TWO dies? No, never, impossible.

    This is why a well worked out game, a tested System and Money Management separates the winners and losers at a Craps Table. Spending too much time working on perfecting percentage outcomes... gives you table time at home, but of no value at a live table.

    One or both dice must hit the back wall. You get a warning, then do it again... a no roll. If you are betting $5, the Boxman is then looking around the table to see the $100 wager(s).

    Do you want the Casino to operate without rules? Players are legally obligated to play by those rules at the Casino, if you like it or not. DI hurts those players, like myself, who are playing on the random outcomes. I am not a percentage player. I play by understanding a game plan and a System that works with my bankroll.

    I have not a clue what many Craps Players are thinking when they play. Craps depends on self controlled, calculating thoughts of game plan. It is not a touchy feeling compassionate Casino game. If you do not know what you are doing and why, you will not have enough money to "play" the toughest Casino game... Craps.
     
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  17. Linaway, Oct 4, 2014

    Linaway

    Linaway Member

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    I must bow to SevenOut’s long term Dice experience. Yet I have a however. However well versed some are, I feel I can stand toe to toe with them and talk the talk as well as walk the walk. My language will be different than most simply because I was tutored by the Master of all. The Dice!


    I also agree with SevenOut when he said “It is not my purpose to research and write any more. Reference his INVENTING the THEORY of DICE INFLUENCING

    I enjoyed the thread.


    For my part, I’ve already written what I feel needs to be revealed publicly. Way too much research was done to accomplish my goal which was to find what is dice all about. Been at it for several years.


    In the early years, I tried to share some of my findings and was immediately asked are you expecting the current authors to rewrite their material? Naturally an ensuing argument began. I had the establishment to deal with where if you did not agree with their way, it’s the highway.


    I will spring forth with a more gentle like breeze rather than the storm that hit me. I won’t say what I think of this kind of behavior. Ah to hell with it, screw them all. That makes my point but still calmer than the reception I got.


    For years I remained in the background doing my research. Because of the schmucks I had to deal with in the past, I now am very selective about who I will share my hard found data with. If your not sincere, I won’t waste time trying to share my material. Yet if you are, I don’t go away after the sale. Your efforts are rewarded in more ways than you can imagine.


    BigBen asked this.


    How can someone "Read The Dice" after they hit the Deck and/or BW, because each and every toss is going to be different?


    BB you just answered your own question. Each and every toss is going to be different. What you should have addressed is each and every outcome will be different. Outcome is what you want to read. Me, I could care less if the dice are on axis or not.


    I would be happy to visit with you. I will not subject myself to bitter confrontations in a public forum. Now, if you're productive with what your doing, far be it from me to say it’s wrong. Here is my thinking. What I do cost far less money to learn than any seminar on the planet, takes far less time to learn. Let’s say you can perform with 50% of your tosses every time on axis.

    QUESTION!

    What will you do with the other 50%? I have never heard an axis shooter direct the dealer to do this.

    “DO NOT PAY THAT LAST HIT FOR IT WAS OFF AXIS”!

    Meet me at the PM if you wish. Keep in mind what we do in private must remain that way or I’m out of the equation! I do not deal with Systems, Methodisms, Strategies. Only Dice Facts!


    Linaway
     
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  18. BigBen, Oct 4, 2014

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

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    When I say "Toss", I'm including the "Outcome" as well.

    Rest assured, PM's will be KEPT PM's.

    BB
     
    #58
  19. SevenOut, Oct 4, 2014

    SevenOut

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    Linaway... never be intimidated on a Forum. Speak your mind. No single individual knows everything there is to know about Craps. Craps can be broken down into basic components. These components are true, factual and can be repeated in tests with actual dice or a computer simulation. You and I could probably come up with a numbered list of Basic Truths, with or without the "pyramids" and work the logic into a smooth wall or irregular wall.

    The "Back Wall", I tell you what I think. It was the idea of a salesmen selling the Craps Tables to the Casino. My tables had the diamond back wall with the manufacturers name... which I do not remember, but they are just off the strip. Even the Casino wanted to touch all bases in case someone could find a way to throw a pair of dice and make them into "percentage dice" legally. This started the interest in DI by a salesman selling "rubber". "If it ain't so, may I be struck down by a meteorite."

    When you add emotions into Craps, this is where the weakest points are brought up for discussion. Craps is a game of simple, basic mathematics. Once you understand this important aspect of the game, the backwall becomes more relevant. Otherwise when some post on these threads, it does not make the common sense barrier. If it does not make sense, ask questions for more information.

    As BigBen said about terminology. We learn the language of Craps as we go.

    Tabletop123 is offering tips. Think about them. Ask questions. Does it pass the Common Sense test? Are there wrong dice and right dice? Are Casino managers just as superstitious as Players?
     
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  20. Harley, Oct 4, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Uncle BigBen - you ask some excellent questions with some very complicated answers, AND for NOW I would not complicate the on-axis video issues with biased dice .... for this exercise and discussion, let's just assume we have fair balanced dice {wink}
     
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