What about the Backwall?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by tabletop123, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. tabletop123, Sep 12, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    I'll start this Post off by saying that The Superball Type Pyramids DO NOT Qualify for this Discussion. Okay, We all realize that the Pyramids were put on the Table To randomize the Dice Outcomes. The Casino's Ace in the Hole, Right? WRONG!! Now, I realize that most players say that you can Gain a LITTLE influence IF ONLY you allow Your Dice to tap the smooth Rubber Portion beneath the Pyramids. Makes sense to me. Well, late Last night & Early this Morning I conducted a little Experiment. Of Course I don't YET have enough Tosses to Draw a Final conclusion. Here is what I did!! I placed a Thin Piece of Flat, Soft wood all the way across my Backwall on my 14 footer where the Pyramids sit. I took a small Thin Nail, & secured the Wood Snuggly over the Pyramids. I wanted to test the results of tossing into a Flat backwall versus The Pyramids. Guess What? The Pyramid Backwall is NOT the Beast that most players think it is. Now, Granted if Your dice engage any higher than the bottom second Row of Pyramids, it's COMPLETELY Random. Likewise, if one Die hits low, & the other Die hits Above the second row of pyramids....... RANDOM!!! Now, the startling part is this: If Your dice hit "Straight On" & stay below the 3rd Row of Pyramids you can gain an advantage. Also(Which is not suprising) If the Backwall was Completely Flat, & Devoid of Pyramids, the DI's would have a field day. There was a SUBSTANTIAL Difference when tossing ONLY to a Non-Pyramid Backwall, but A good solid Toss, without engaging into the upper Pyramids of the Backwall produced Noteworthy results as well. So, Only engaging in the Lower Smooth Portion of the Backwall is Not the Only way to skin the Cat, & That DREADED Backwall can actually Become Your Friend, IF You address it Correctly. A skilled Shooter could Wreak ABSOLUTE Havoc on a Table with a Flat Backwall. A Dice Influencer"s Dream Table. For those of You that Have a Table at Home, Toss into a Flat Backwall & tell me HOW YOU LIKE IT!!! Now, If only I could find that Casino with the FLAT, NON-PYRAMID BACKWALL!! LOL
     
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  2. DeMango, Sep 12, 2014

    DeMango

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    Wong, in "Wong on Dice", came to the conclusion that the pyramids effect was overrated.
    Solomon said; "There is nothing new under the Sun"
     
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  3. superrick, Sep 12, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Wong also came to the conclusion that he wasted he time trying to become a DI, after watching what happen to the dice in slow motion. They bounce all over the place, even before they hit the back wall!
     
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  4. tabletop123, Sep 12, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    No Disrespect Superrick, but if YOU REALLY believed that the Tosses are TOTALLY Random YOU wouldn't waste YOUR time Practicing YOUR toss. Now, Maybe WONG did waste his time trying to become a DI. You've said YOURSELF countless times that MOST people will fail at Dice Influencing.I realize that a lot of The casinos read these Boards & I know it's important to DownPlay DI'ng to a certain extent, but there is a Certain Order in the way that the Dice Bounce around. I know You'll choose to remain Modest & state that YOU are just getting Lucky with all those Extraordinarily Long Hands that YOU Toss. From what I've heard about YOUR shooting Superrick, YOU"VE been getting "Lucky" for a Pretty Long Time. I mean REALLY, Are YOU that Freaking Lucky? LOL I agree that Every toss is NOT an influenced toss & what we do is "Percentage" shooting at Best, but when a Shooter gets "Lucky" the vast majority of the Time, there's a little something more than Just "Luck" Going on. Sure, You can claim the Acquisition of good betting skills that You've developed over the years, but that won't explain the longer than Normal Hand Lengths that you are Tossing time after Time. I realize that you don't win every time, but I'll lay you 500 to 1 that you're batting above 300. We've never met, but You don't strike me as the Type of person that would be wasting their time. ESPECIALLY in a casino!!! Good Luck at the tables.
     
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  5. DeMango, Sep 13, 2014

    DeMango

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    Wong changed his mind because he would not practice and it showed. It changed his "luck"
     
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  6. BigBen, Sep 13, 2014

    BigBen

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    Exactly!
     
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  7. superrick, Sep 13, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Now I loved these two quotes! Did either one of your guys ever met Wong, have you ever play on the same table with him? Well I have been on the tables with him quite a few times, and the guy is a very intelligent guy, and him saying that he had to think differently after seeing a slow motion video shows his intelligences. They went out and rented that slow motion camera, back then we didn't have cheap slow motion video cameras, where anybody can buy on and use it, for around $200!



    Please just show a few shots that you think stay on axis if you have a slow motion video camera and your shots are up to par! Why don't you take a camera to the next class that you go to and video some of those great shots that the instructors are making and then show the world that the dice do not bounce all over the place when they hit the tables, and they do stay on axis!

    I'm sorry guys your argument just doesn't get it about Stanford Wong, slow motion video is the killer to the dice staying on axis when you are shooting, sure they may end up on what you think is on axis after bouncing all over the place!

    Now if you ever run into Stanford Wong on the tables just ask him if he ever met the Madprofessor, he was telling everybody that he is the only guy he know that is an overall winner at playing craps, you can find that in his interview around 34:12. I asked him that question once and he said that he had talked to him on the phone but never met him! The Madprofessor is the only DI that writes and post on the different craps boards that nobody has ever met in a casino! So how can his claim to fame hold up?

    Let see we can run through all kinds on DI's that we have ran into on the tables that everybody knows, I could waste my time listing their names, but the one name that would never be on that list is the Madprofessor!

    At 26.45 Stanford is saying that the dice bounce all over the place. At 30:00 he is saying that it would still pay to take a class, and I do agree with that as long as your taking a class from someone that is not allowing fiction on their craps board!

    At 34:12 he is talking about heat, that a DI would get if he was always winning or just a really good shooter.

    At 34:46 he is talking about the only overall winner that he knows, that was the Madprofessor that he never met, way to funny if you ask me!

    When any of us are talking about heat, we should lay the blame for it happening on guys like the Madprofessor that is writing nothing but fiction, and making outrages claims like his SRR of 28, just to name one of the many that just don't hold water!

    By the way Stanford Wong is still playing craps, but told it like it really is, in the above interview!

    If you are playing craps you can not live in lala land. You need the best information you can get about the game you need to know how the casinos are running their game, fiction is great for entrainment, but there should never be any on any of the craps boards!
     
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  8. tabletop123, Sep 13, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Well, Superrick, I'm gonna Have to disagree with You on this One. SURE! The Dice do Bounce. I mean REALLY, How can you toss Dice without some form of a Bounce? My assertion is that You can RESTRICT SOME of the Bounce with a Good Toss. NO, I NEVER said that You could CONTROL Bounce, but You can stop Your Dice from running everywhere like an Escaped Prisoner. What you fail to mention is that "OTHERS" have contributed to the heat that DI's get, as well. Sure, there may be a few that Make Ridiculous DI'ng Claims, but over the Years it has been a COLLECTIVE effort of people (unknowingly) that have Made the Casinos so Paranoid. Slow motion video does show the Dice going through a lot of Chaotic Behavior, but how do You explain the Guy/gals that Consistently Skew Probability? Where's the slo-Mo Explanation for That? I NEVER will claim that DI'ng is the "BE-ALL" "END ALL" to the game of Craps. However, there are a elite group of shooters that are MORE THAN PROBABILITIES DICTATE, receiving Favorable results year after Year. Sure, He/She doesn't win every single session, but when it's all said & Done, They end up in the Black!! MUST be SOMETHING in the air, Huh? Now, I NEVER said He/She was winning Millions, or even Thousands a year. Hell, it could even be Hundreds a year. A Win is a Win!!!!!
     
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  9. DeMango, Sep 13, 2014

    DeMango

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    Wong, in "Wong on Dice", came to the conclusion that the pyramids effect was overrated.
    Solomon said; "There is nothing new under the Sun"

    Back on the subject please. The back wall.
     
    #9
  10. BigBen, Sep 13, 2014

    BigBen

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    SR, I'm simply going with what Wong has stated!
    Nothing more, nothing less.

    And I'm NOT living in "La La land", and I've NEVER taken a class either!
    I speak truth, warts and all as they say.

    And here we go again, it seems that you always revert back to "Fiction Writers".
    Who cares what anyone has written. Let them write whatever the heck they like.
    Some believe what they write, some don't.
    Besides, that stuff has already been written, it's done and over with.
    Stop obsessing over them, would ya. It's bad for your health, Bro! LOL...

    And like one of our teammates keeps saying: "When we toss the dice, "SOMTHING" is going on. Not sure exactly WHAT, but something IS going on".

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    BB
     
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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
  11. tabletop123, Sep 13, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Well, I'll say it time & again. Screw the Backwall. IF you know what You are doing the Backwall doesn't matter. It actually an Aid IF Your Tosses hit Straight & True!!! There'll always be a Randomizing effect from the Backwall, but a Proficient Tosser still gains an edge. The reason most people fail is Because they Go too High & too Hard into the Pyramids!!!! A light to moderate Tap below the 3rd Row gets the job Done. Every Table that you encounter is a Puzzle, & Your job is to put together the Pieces. I've actually tossed on Tables wherein if You Missed the Backwall with either Die, You can kiss Your Money Goodbye....... Seven Out Line away. Whether you are rolling or Bouncing into the Smooth Rubber Portion beneath the Pyramids, or Bouncing your dice Directly off Backwall, if You don't have good Rotational control........ ALL IS FOR NAUGHT!!!!! Now, I'm not saying that You have to put a spin on Your dice(Because some people use a No spin Knuckleball Toss) in order to get them working together, but WHATEVER You do Your Dice BETTER be doing the same thing when they hit that tabletop. Otherwise You may as well just pick them up & fling them like everyone else. You'd be surprised to see the abnormal things that work on One table but are the worst thing that you can do on another Table. I've seen People(Myself included) toss into the Mixing Bowl with Huge success. I've seen the Dice being "Trapped" where the Backwall & felt Meets. EVERYTHING works SOMETIMES!!!! Personally I target 3 SPECIFIC spots on Every table that I play on before I'll even take Odds on my Passline Bet. If you toss CORRECTLY into 3 or 4 spots, & You don't get a Bite, it's time to move on to a more forgiving Table. As much as I hate to admit it....... There ARE some tables that You just can't defeat. The Superball rubber Pyramid Tables are the perfect Example. I don't care how crafty your toss is. Once your dice TOUCH that Backwall Your dice take off like a Lunar Launch.
     
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  12. superrick, Sep 13, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Here is a funny one for you guys, a shooter was at Green Valley Ranch and was just getting lucky, and was throwing the dice as hard as he could right into the back wall about 4" up from the felt.

    He was then told that he's dice had to hit the felt before they hit the back wall, there was a big argument about what he was doing and they took the dice off him! So much for hitting the back wall.

    I was once banned from a casino because I was just killing the 4 and the suit told me I had to throw the dice into the back wall, when I asked where he wanted me to hit the back wall he pointed to half way up the wall, when I didn't hit it there they banned me from playing there.

    In Vegas they can do anything they want to when your playing craps, there are no written rules, and that's a big problem for anybody that is just getting lucky. You expect to get a fair game and if your winning and they can stop you by telling you that your not hitting the back wall they will, even when you are hitting it.

    I simple stopped playing in some of what I call nothing but sweat joints, that will use that tactic to stop a roll from happening. If your a DI you have been trained to hit the back wall, you know that anything short of it can get you heat, and most likely a seven-out !!
    Yes, there are other predominate guilty parties, that has added fuel to the fire over years by making ridiculous claims to sell their books and classes.

    There is a general consensus that the captain was a figment of someone's imagination, that was used to sell classes. There were no DI's that ever met him!

    I've stood at a craps table many time watching a so-called DI burning through his money , the guy sucked and couldn't shoot, but when I read his trip report you would have thought he was a god.

    The internet is a very interesting place, you can be anybody you want to be, if nobody every meets you.

    Yes,.. all Shooters have good days and bad ones, real DI's turn those bad days into little losses, with smart betting! A DI need more then just good shooting to win they need great money management skills. Most so-called DI's don't even know what that is. As one of the owners of a class always says is “save your lunch money guys so you can attend my next class. You can do that by just taking a brown bag lunch to work every day!”

    It is always going to boil down the one thing, your not a machine, your playing on tables with other stupid players, that will do every stupid thing they can to get you to seven out. Hitting the back wall is just a minor thing compared to what, the other players on the table will do to the shooter!
    BigBen I only wish that some of you guys that play in AC would live and play here in Vegas full time, then you would be on the same bandwagon that I'm on! There is no reason why any shooter should get hassled when they are shooting, just because you are setting the dice doesn't mean a thing, I've set them from the first time I picked them up and that was before they coined those now famous words dice controller.

    We never heard anything from the suits, boxmen or dealers about the back wall or anything else, I was never called a dice counter because I tracked the tables I was always the next shooter, and that was it. Everybody on the table was the next shooter when the last one sevened out!

    The harassment is not going away, unless these fiction writers are proven to be just fiction writers! You may not like what I write, but I do write the truth, and in a way I'm helping you out, by exposing these guys for what they are, just fiction writers!

    There was no such thing as heat, and before they changed to splitting tips the dealers wanted to see you winning, that came along the corporate mentality, that the dealers should all pool their tips, so the bad ones that didn't give a rats ass about the game they were dealing would make some tip money! It was positively the worst thing they ever did. Now days you have dealers that are just going to work to pick-up tips that that the good dealers are making for them!

    Next video please to back-up what your saying. If you can't produce one the argument should end there!
     
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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
  13. BigBen, Sep 13, 2014

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

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    True about the tips.

    But now you're starting to sound like a naysayer, with the video nonsense.
    Someone could post videos of a million rolls and it won't prove squat, one way or the another!

    I'm done ova here.
    Later...
     
    #13
  14. tabletop123, Sep 13, 2014

    tabletop123

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    I don't understand it!! Now, I've picked up some Very Helpful Tips over the Last Year by Reading some Of Your Posts Superrick. It seems as of late, The more You post, The more You sound Like Wong. One day your Pro Dice Influencing. The next day Your making it sound like a Joke, & everybody's just getting lucky. The Dice Bounce all over the Place. The Dice do not Stay on Axis. You have to be Lucky. IF You REALLY feel that way, what is Your purpose for Practicing Dice Influencing? I agree that it's a Fleeting Craft, & anything's likely to Happen, but it seems as though YOU don't Believe in what YOU are doing. Or is this just a ploy to keep DI'ng Low-key? You constantly speak of videos showing the Dice Don't stay on axis. Who the Fu--k cares? As long as You avoid the seven(Rightside Shooting) does it really matter if Your dice stay on axis or Not? Off axis shooting is Just as Effective (If Not more, Because Your dice are gonna stay Off axis the Majority of the time anyway)than On axis shooting. Any dice Influencer Knows that!!! I've had a lot of winning sessions by some of the advice that You've given on these forums. NOT because you are superrick, & the fact that you play frequently in a Casino Town. ONLY because I have tried some of Your suggestions(Clicking a die, tracking both Dice in the casinos, playing on empty tables, NOT playing on weekends, etc) & I KNOW it works. Have made money off of the Suggestions. It simply doesn't make sense to Speak highly of different Schools, Certain shots that work on most Tables, Sound betting strategies, Good Money management, Knowing when to quit, etc, & then say EVERYBODY is just getting Lucky. I tell you what...... There's no way in hell that I'm gonna invest in a $3,000 table, Practice my toss Religiously, JUST to try to get Lucky. Luck? Why not Forget practicing altogether, & just show up at the casinos with my favorite Lucky rabbit's Foot? Might as well. It's all Luck, anyways Right?
     
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  15. basicstrategy777, Sep 14, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    It appears if you agree with what people write, they are smart....and if you disagree with what they write, they are not smart. I don't know if this is smart.

    777
     
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  16. superrick, Sep 14, 2014

    superrick

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    You should care and so should everybody that tries to become a so-called DI, simple put the dice do not stay on axis, we needed slow-motion video to prove that, and yes there is a lot of luck in what we are doing. The best looking shot I ever made was a seven-out.

    You need the real story if you are playing craps,. not some fiction that someone that nobody has ever met is writing. There are many things that will stop a roll from happening. I never said that you couldn't improve your game by learning how to shoot better. What we see happening in a lot of the casino, is because of all the great fiction that is being written, players are getting hassled for no reason at all.

    We all arguing about a point that should already be common knowledge, and that is the dice do not stay on axis, and they do bounce all over the place when they hit the tables. This fact should influence the way that you are betting. So you can become a better player, by not living in lala land. Living there will cost you money.

    The so called DI's have all been sold down the Yellow Brick Road, with the on axis thing. There are some very good shooters out there, but the same can be said for some guys that never set the dice. The reason we don't hear about them is because they don't have craps boards for the so-called random rollers!

    Your a lot better off knowing that no matter how much you practice you can't win all of the time, some days everything goes right for you and they are days that you should have stayed in bed! I'm not the bad guy here, I'm just telling it like it is!

    If you think that you can control the dice so be it, I'm not arguing that you can't, all I'm saying it its something that you can't do all of the time, and yes you do need luck to get on a roll!

    There is no doubt that BigBen and the guys that he shoots with may be better that everybody else on the table when it comes to shooting. But just like everybody else they are going to have their losing days, craps is just a very frustrating game at times.
    No,.. I'm just making a very sad point, there is no way to prove that what we do can be done on a full time basis. The videos do prove one thing and that your not a machine, you can't even come up with a few videos that shows in slow motion that what you are trying to do works, like all the schools and our fiction writers say it does. BigBen if you had a video recorder on all the time when you were practicing it would prove that you could or couldn't do what everybody calls being a DI.

    The slow-motion videos of your shooting should teach you a few things about your shooting.

    Remember I'm not telling you to quit what you are doing, I'm not telling anybody to do that. I telling you that if you are trying to become a so-called DI that it's going to be a long hard road,. And that you can't win every time you go to the casinos.

    The reality of playing craps is that there are days that you will win, if you know what you are really up against! You can do that with smart betting and knowing when to leave a table.

    I'm one of the guys that want to see you win and have a fighting chance when you are playing craps. We all live in different worlds when it comes to playing craps. In different markets we are all treated differently. I could play in AC and nothing would ever be said to me about my shooting, because of the rules they have in place!

    The two of you have a standing invitation any time your in Vegas to go to the tables with me, and we can stop the arguing about what I am. You may think that I'm your enemy, but that is not the case.

    I just want to see a hasslefree environment for all craps players to play in!

    The two of you forget that this is what we practice on, we have a little more then that $3000 your writing about in practicing equipment!

    http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php

     
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  17. tabletop123, Sep 14, 2014

    tabletop123

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    Well, The $3,000 comment was NOT a "I'm High & Mighty Statement". It was meant to convey that I've put a great Deal of effort into this Craft. In regards to the On axis comment. It makes me No difference, As long as I'm Extending my Hands. A random Roller's dice stay on axis 44% of the time. That's a Fact. Now, if a Dice Influencer Only exhibits .5%- 2% influence(Fleetingly) why Should He/She Go against the Grain? No matter how good you shoot, STAYING at 50% or above On axis Shooting Is Damn Near Impossible. Any REAL DI should Know that. So that leaves You with Off axis Tosses & Avoiding the Hand-Ending Seven-Out for as Long as You possibly can. Personally, I do TRY to Have my Dice end up in the Configuration set Prior to the Toss, but I also realize that I'll fail more than Expected. WHY? Because the math says that LONG-TERM the dice will only stay on axis 44% of the Time. Doesn't Matter if a Greek God is tossing the Dice. It is what it is. So, even though anything can happen in the Short Term(Maybe 65% or Better on Axis Shooting), If you keep tossing the Dice Long enough, Your numbers will revert close to what Probabilities Dictate. If that wasn't True every DI would have this Dice Influencing thing Figured out, & be Printing Money. YES, there's a certain amount of luck needed with EVERY long Roll. I mean REALLY, You can't have BUZZARD luck & expect to go on Long Rolls. I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you are a Hater. Whether I win or Loose has absolutely No impact on Your Bankroll one way or another. I'm just opposed to some of Your comments about the movement of the dice. I have YET to see a SKILLED shooter's Tosses FLYING all over the table as You claim that they Do!! YES, I've viewed COUNTLESS Slo-Mo Video Tosses. Do the dice Bounce? ABSOLUTELY, but the Good shooter's Dice Bounce LESS than the Random Rollers. I even stated in my aforementioned post that I CANNOT guarantee a Favorable Outcome with my Tosses. I DID SAY that I can minimize the Bounce & keep a LARGE percentage of my tosses Closely Cropped Together & within close Proximity to the Backwall. NO, I NEVER said I could Control the Numeric outcomes, but I can restrict the Bounce. So, I am not living in La La Land & I FULLY know what I am up against each & EVERY time I step up to a Crap Table.. I NEVER said it was all peachy & Rosy. I've Lost my Bankroll on SEVERAL occasions. However, REGARDLESS of what YOU say, I KNOW there are SKILLED shooters that end up in the Black Year after Year!! And it's NOT because of their Stellar Shooting alone!! Good Betting, Discipline, & Money Management Plays an Integral Part. I NEVER said IF the winnings were SUBSTANTIAL or NOT!!! NEVERTHELESS, they are STILL wins. I NEVER said it was Enough to pay the Mortgage, or to live Comfortably. Only a win at the end of the year!!! The nice thing about playing craps is that IF you are smart, You preserve Your Bankroll on Shitty Days, & You live to fight another day. If you've been playing long enough & You KNOW your shot, & what Your dice SHOULD be doing,,,,,, You SHOULD also know when it's NOT working & when it's Time To walk. You MUST Remember that DI's have VERY Big Egos because they practice their toss/s all the Time & therefore they think their Shit don't stink. The little edge that you MIGHT acquire in any given session is VERY fleeting, Very small, & I can Guaran-Dam-tee You that it won't last very long. That's just the way it is, & as a Winning DI, the sooner you realize it, the Better Your chances for Success!!!
     
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  18. Linaway, Sep 14, 2014

    Linaway

    Linaway Member

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    tt123,

    Uh, I see fault in your percentages and quoted facts. Would you care to explain where you got them and what the equations are to calculate them? Ref. msg 188.

    This question is directed to tt123 only. All other responses will be ignored. Thanks.

    Linaway
     
    #18
  19. tabletop123, Sep 14, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    WOW!! Where have You been? I've sent you several E-mails. Check Your E-mails & (E-MAIL) me back P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!
     
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  20. tabletop123, Sep 14, 2014

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    The last you replied was in reference To addresses & THAT was the last that I heard from YOU!!! Just assumed that MAYBE you had closed down the Laboratory! LOL
     
    #20
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