Wynn loses 10 million on baccarat

Discussion in 'Other Casino Games' started by TDVegas, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. TDVegas, Jul 28, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    #1
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  2. von duck, Jul 29, 2017

    von duck

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    #2
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
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  3. DeMango, Jul 29, 2017

    DeMango

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    Reading on.......Tesla new car 310 mile range for only $44K!
     
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  4. von duck, Jul 29, 2017

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    I need to go 620 miles, so I'm gonna get two of them.:D :cool:.
     
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  5. Eptich, Mar 6, 2018

    Eptich

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    Yeah, there are a great of quantity a professional players on Baccarat, mere I'd like to undestand the basics of poker.
     
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  6. TDVegas, Mar 6, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Not knowing much about baccarat other than it's banker vs. player...and both house edges hover around 1%...

    Is there any decision making by the player other than bet amount and which to choose (player or banker?)
     
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  7. wonko33, Mar 6, 2018

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    yes, he can choose when to leave ;)

    I think big baccarat one player flips the card or something but not mini and all the other ones
     
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  8. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    Yes, you can bet a tie. In fact, for you, I recommend the tie bet. :D To understand any more, you'll have to first , learn to count to nine. :cool:
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  9. random_roller, Mar 6, 2018

    random_roller

    random_roller Member

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    There is a possible AP for EZ Baccarat with the bonus bets, but the advantage is de minimis.

    Baccarat is a notoriously streaky game. It is not unusual to see a Banker (or Player) run of 10+ consecutive wins in a shoe, which might seem odd for a game that is basically a coin flip between Banker and Player. Runs of 5 are "expected". I played baccarat at Horseshoe (Hammond, IN) on Sunday and there was a Player run of 11 consecutive wins early in the shoe (starting about the 6th hand; typically 65-75 hands per shoe). The previous shoe had closed out with 4 Banker wins, and those were preceded by 7 Player wins in 8 hands. I thought I had tracked pretty well (and up to that point I had) and bet very, very, very, uh, aggressively on Banker after 10 straight Player wins. Ooops. Could have been a nice new...toy. Earlier this year at Rivers Casino (Des Plaines, IL), the result board for the next baccarat table over was entirely Banker (@17 decisions) and the Pit Boss told us it was @24 Banker wins in a row.

    If one has the bankroll, patience, and a good sense of tracking & analyzing "patterns", baccarat is arguably the best game to play at a casino. Note I didn't say most exciting, because craps has baccarat easily beat in that department. Smart baccarat players are *not* betting every hand. Some players will only play @5 hands a shoe. It is very hard to quantify but just as there are those who seemingly tend to have longer rolls at the craps table more often than the average player, there are those who can pick hands in baccarat at a considerably better clip than 50-50 (disregarding ties, which are a push on the primary Banker/Player bet). Unlike roulette, IMO there is something to be gained by studying the baccarat result board. Doesn't always work, of course, but it's worth the effort from my perspective. I'll leave it at that. :D
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  10. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

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    Exactly why would baccarat be any more streaky, than something else. "Smart" baccarat players are not betting any hands. Maybe "losing" 10 million, is good. P.R. And I can think of a way to do it , real cheap. :cool:
     
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  11. rongarm10, Mar 6, 2018

    rongarm10

    rongarm10 Member

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    Not much n the decision making part of playing baccarat. Just sayin.
     
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  12. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    I think many Asians, might beg to differ with you on that. They can really "get down" on those score cards. Don't play that game, but I like to take a detour through "China town" sometimes, just for the entertainment. :D
     
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  13. random_roller, Mar 6, 2018

    random_roller

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    Traditionally at the big table (run by a crew of 3), the high bettor for each bet (Player, Banker) flips cards. However, Rivers Casino -- the only casino outside of Las Vegas where I have seen the big baccarat tables in use) changed up a few things in 2016. They got rid of their mini & midi baccarat tables (except in High Limit room) and replaced them with big tables. Now, players can only handle cards only at the $25 and higher baccarat tables.
    At mini baccarat tables (up to 7 players), the dealer flips cards for both Player and Banker.

    For midi baccarat (up to 9 players), it depends upon house rules. Traditionally it was a player flip table but nowadays I see more midi baccarat tables where the dealer flips all cards (to generate more hands per hour). Horseshoe (Hammond, IN) has both types of midi baccarat tables.
     
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  14. random_roller, Mar 6, 2018

    random_roller

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    Based upon my years of playing baccarat, it just is that way. Sit at the table, make an occasional bet and watch a few shoes of play. Count the number of times there is a run of 3, 4, 5, or more for Player or Banker. The game is unique in certain aspects. Once the cards have been shuffled, cut, placed in the shoe, & the appropriate number of cards burned (based upon the 1st card draw), the outcomes for the hands are basically determined at that point (US game), awaiting pre-determined rules to deal the appropriate number of cards for each hand. In other words, there is no option for the high bettor to take an additional card or surrender a hand.
     
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  15. von duck, Mar 7, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    What you say is true about the outcomes being predetermined, but I'll bet the runs in this game pretty much mimic craps or BJ. If they didn't, then the "5 count" type system would be more effective than usual, and I'm pretty sure it's not. The very limited options in this game, are one reason I don't play it, like betting on a coin flip....zzzzzzzzzz! :cool:
     
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  16. random_roller, Mar 7, 2018

    random_roller

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    True, there are only a few bets (Banker, Player, Tie, bonus), but there is quite a bit more to the decision-making process than meets the eye for many baccarat players, especially the big bettors. Some of the charting and interpretation is quite interesting.
     
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  17. Eptich, Mar 12, 2018

    Eptich

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    Yeah, it's interesting opinion.
     
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  18. mrboxingfan, Jun 12, 2018

    mrboxingfan

    mrboxingfan Member

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    I was a Baccarat Counter, It takes a team to beat that game and really not worth it.
     
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  19. TDVegas, Jun 12, 2018

    TDVegas

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    Just about all the experts consider card counting for baccarat a no go. Won't work for all practical purposes.

    Dr. Ed Thorp stated that: “Despite the resemblances between baccarat and blackjack, the favorable situations detected by perfect card counting methods are not sufficient to make the game favorable.” He also stated that: “… no practical winning strategy is possible for the Nevada game, even with a computing machine playing a perfect game.”.

    James Grosjean stated that: “baccarat counting is weak for several reasons: (1) The game is symmetric so that there are no cards that massively favor one bet or the other … (2) The initial advantage to overcome is greater in baccarat than in blackjack; (3) Baccarat is usually dealt from an 8 deck shoe, so the volatility of the edge is low; (4) A baccarat count cannot be used to increase playing efficiency, because the drawing rules are fixed.”

    Peter A. Grffin, discussing the futility of using a card counting system to beat baccarat, begins his discussion stating: “Before you start wondering why I’m offering these marvelous gambling aids to you at such a ridiculously low price (along with the ginzu knife and the wok) instead of trying to peddle them to some well healed sucker …”

    Michael Shackleford stated that: “For all practical purposes, baccarat is not a countable game.”

    There are card counting systems that can work to “beat" baccarat. Both Griffin and Shackleford gave tags for card counting in baccarat. These card counting systems are impractical, to say the least, involving adding decimals to the hundredth place and perfect conversions to true counts. Griffin stated that: “… assuming you’ll wager $1000 whenever you get the go-ahead, this translates into an expected earnings of 70 cents per shoe. In an eight hour day you might make three bets.” Shackleford says that the player can earn about 15 cents per wager: “… assuming the player is able to keep a perfect count and the casino is not going to mind the player making a bet once every 475 hands ...”.

    Ed Thorp developed a simple card counting system that he suggested to use to make the decision to make a “player” bet in baccarat. The “player-system” has tags {0, -1, -1, -2, -2, +1, +2, +2, +1, 0}. Thorp did not claim his count would give the card counter a way to beat the house; rather, he intended it as a method for reducing the disadvantage betting on the “player” side. There is a similar card counting system to use if one wants to make wagers on the “banker” side. This “banker-system” has tags {0, +1, +1, +1, +2, -1, -2, -1, -1, 0}. If a card counter was going to use any system in practice, it would be one of these two systems.
     
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