Why play a come bet?

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by 7DOWN11, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    Hey All,

    I am relatively new to this (thread and Craps in general)..... While I realize everyone has their 'best way of play' (and know 'theirs is the absolute correct way to play' from the banter back and forth)... I'd like to ask for a basic answer to the first question that started this whole discussion.

    Like I said - I am a newbie to Craps in general. I understand the 'basic's' of various bets. I've invested in a basic Pass/Don't pass strategy -- and now looking into a Place betting strategy, yet leaving the Come bets open for consideration....

    I am curious, like the first post of this thread, about the Come bet. On a recent trip, noticed several 2, 3, and 12's rolls during a couple of the point reconciliations (will the point roll, or the SO). If I'd Placed the 5, 6, 8, 9 - the 2, 3 ,12, rolls would not affected the bets on the table - yet, not require the '2nd' time to hit one of 'those' numbers to get paid. What am I missing (besides the difference in the payout -- only if I have odds on the traveled Come bet)?
     
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  2. TDVegas, Feb 19, 2015

    TDVegas

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    If you place the 5-6-8-9, the 2,3 or 12 are meaningless rolls. you don't win and you don't lose

    If you put a come bet out---it will either lose if the 2,3,12 is rolled or win on the 7,11. If a 4-5-6-8-9-10 is rolled, your come bet moves to the number rolled. That chip is now in action on a number (say 6). If another 6 is rolled after that, your bet wins even money. If 7 is rolled, you lose.
     
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  3. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    I do understand that -- and going with your thought, I would had won with the roll of the
    Placed 6 (if the strategy was still 'on' 6) as the Come bet was moved to it's now contract. Why is it (the Come bet) 'better'(other than the difference in the difference of the pay out of the Placed $'s or the Come $odds)?
     
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  4. Onautopilot, Feb 19, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    The dice do not have a "memory", they do not know what the last number was! There is no 2nd. number (6) consideration, or at least there shouldn't be. If you bet the come, and a 6 rolls, you have exactly the same odds of making that 6 as you always have. The "have to make the number twice on the come, and not the place bet." is erroneous thinking.
     
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  5. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    _erroneous_ -- I understand the "Hell" of Craps is "die have no memory"... putting that aside - why is Come better than Place?
     
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  6. TDVegas, Feb 19, 2015

    TDVegas

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    Not to go offtopic---on autopilot,
    When you dealt in your career, did you ever see casino personnel give "heat" to suspected DI players? I'm not talking about basic rules like hitting the back wall but rather suspected dice influence players getting grief from the pit boss as a card counter would?
     
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  7. TDVegas, Feb 19, 2015

    TDVegas

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    thats the math of the game. Place 6 house edge I believe about 1.54. Come bet is 1.41 and by taking true odds it reduces it farther (or further?)---down below 1%.
     
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  8. Onautopilot, Feb 19, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    I just posted a reply to that on the other thread, Casino cheating thing I think.
     
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  9. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    There is consideration if the Come (and if placed Odds) is needed to be rolled to be in your favor (as well as the Placed 6)

    If I understand it "The House Edge" is calculated from the payout -- so, yes, if the odds were played on the "(contract) now new need # to roll again" (calculated based on the ratio of Placed $'s compared to the Odds $'s)...Am I missing it?
     
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  10. Onautopilot, Feb 19, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    Better bet is really up to the individual, especially if the HA is similar. If you like to control your bets, maybe the place bet would be your choice. If you like the idea of a small come bet, and taking large odds, then the come bet might be the choice. Saying what bet is better, other than HA, is strictly a personal choice, based on their goals, and preferred method of play.
     
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  11. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    Thank you!!! :cool:
     
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  12. goatcabin, Feb 19, 2015

    goatcabin

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    It's difficult to compare place bets on the 6 or 8 to a come bet, because they have very basic difference: the place bet has only one "stage", and can be called "off" or taken down at any time, whereas the come bet has two "stages", cannot be called off or taken down after it has moved to a point number, and the player has the option to take odds on the point. Also, with place bets you can choose your numbers, whereas with come bets the dice choose the point for you.

    The come bet has a 2:1 advantage on its comeout roll, just like the pass line does. Once it moves to a point, it has the same probability of winning as a place bet on that same number, but gets even money instead of the 7:6, 7:5 or 9:5 of the place bets. OTOH, if you take odds, they are paid off a 6:5, 3:2 and 2:1, the true odds.

    Many players want to pick the point numbers they will bet on, particularly the 6 and 8, which, of course, are the next most likely numbers to roll, after the seven. Also, the place bets on the 6 and 8 have much lower house edges (1.515%) than the other place bets, but still not as low as the come bet (1.414%). Also, some bettors believe they can "sense" the seven coming, so they value the ability to call the place bets "off" or take them down. Others mistakenly believe that the seven becomes more likely after not showing for a while. This is nonsense, of course, but to them the flexibility has value.

    Although very close in HA, the place 6/8 and the come have different degrees of volatility, these place bets having a standard deviation 1.078 times the bet amount, the come equal to the bet amount.

    For me, the deciding factor is the ability to take odds on the come bets, adding considerable volatility without any additional expected loss. Instead of placing $12 on the six, if you bet $5 come and take double odds, your average bet will be $11.67, with less than half the expected loss and about the same standard deviation.

    With the place bets, you can cover as many numbers as you want to right away, whereas it takes longer with come bets, but you are also getting that nice advantage on the first roll of the come bets.

    Bottom line, "you pays your money and you takes your choice"; there is no "better" for everyone.
     
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  13. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    There is flexibility of taking down the "odds" on the Come right?

    Is this the 'equilibrium' of the math of "statistics" >=< "probability"

    (and the ratio of the $'s Placed >=< $'s Come base bet + Odds with the "extra" roll needed) -- sorry :) )
     
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  14. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    Saying the "nice advantage" of the "first roll" --- 7 or what? Apologize -- I don't understand what you mean...
     
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  15. rongarm10, Feb 19, 2015

    rongarm10

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    I think one of the biggest reasons that I don't like come bets is if a 4 or 10 is rolled my come bet goes there. Slightly harder number to hit. Not saying it can't be hit, but, here we go again, the math of the game says so. Also I don't like to have 2/3 come bets up for the come out. If a 7 shows down they go. Just sayin.
     
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  16. basicstrategy777, Feb 19, 2015

    basicstrategy777

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    Just the flat. It can be a blessing in disguise ...the second roll could be a 7 and you'd lose it all.

    Come bets can be a forced form of discipline as it will get the bet and winnings off the table.

    It's a mistake to knock the come bet, I believe. Place and come can both be used and have their place for the Right bettor.

    777
     
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  17. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    (if not rolling -- on an automatic(bubble craps) / electronic machine) - just %/36 - right?

    As well as 2-6 Place bets "out in the open" -- same result if "7 out".....

    To play Devil Advocate -- where does the %/256 come to play?
     
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  18. Onautopilot, Feb 19, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    That is a mixed feeling, having a winner on the line and lose your come bets. I think you have to look at come bets as a separate game, just another pass line bet that happened previously, with a bad ending....the winning come out 7, but, another way to look at it, the win on the 7 come out roll off sets the loss on the come bet. Not any different from having lost the last line bet, then win the next one.
     
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  19. Dogalot, Feb 19, 2015

    Dogalot

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    I don't intend to "knock" the come bet -- just trying to wrap my understanding of why to use it -- or better -- how

    scenario - 2 base $5 bets (1st Come out roll - 2nd Come bet --- #'s really don't matter do they? :) ) -- Is the best next bet $15 on Come -- if 7 is rolled = up $5 (no odds on any previous 2 decisions)
     
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  20. Onautopilot, Feb 19, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    You use it the same as you use a pass line bet, they are exactly the same thing. You are just speeding up the game for yourself is all, more pass action in a shorter time frame. They are nothing more than continuous pass line bets. The confusion probably arises from the fact that you have two or more pass line bets at the same time, all with different point numbers.
     
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