Why Max Odds Bets?

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by Grizzoola, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Grizzoola, Feb 10, 2014

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    As the OP, there has been a lot of good advice/observations. TD has said what others have suggested. I'll play at the Main Street Station in downtown LV next week and keep what's been said well in mind.

    My OP was questioning this apparent fixation some have on max odds, 100x odds, etc. My point, as others have verified, that doing this blindly will either wipe you out quickly or enrich you quickly. I enjoy craps & want to not only walk away ahead, but also to have experienced a good 1-2 hrs. of enjoyable play. I'm still getting a feel for this game. My BR is usually $200, but I keep thinking that buying in for $400 & doubling my bets, I will win more and lose more, because after ~30 sessions in different venues, I'm modestly ahead & perhaps getting a little greedy.

    I'll do the $200 1st & if things look good, I'll go the $400 route, maybe adding 1 Come bet w/ odds if things going right.
     
    #21
  2. TDVegas, Feb 10, 2014

    TDVegas

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    Yes. There's no reason to start out with 5x, 10x odds bet. The variance in the game can destroy your bankroll in 3-4 rolls. If you are there to enjoy yourself (which really should be the goal in any negative expectation game) then allow yourself to stay in the game for a while. As stated, avoid the nonsense single roll prop bets. They are merely the equivalent of handing your money to the casino. The only thing I tell people is bet comfortably and never make a bet that shakes your nerves. You are there for fun and at the same time hoping for a little lady luck. If you want to add a little variance to your pass/don't pass bets...throw out a few come bets. I encourage people to look for bubble craps as novices because the limits can be as low as $1 in Vegas. You can experiment all you want and never lose too much. Try the 3 point Molly if you want a liittle more excitement.
     
    #22
  3. rudeboy99, Feb 10, 2014

    rudeboy99

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    I agree with you absolutely, Griz. If you are going to be viable, allowing yourself a chance to catch that all-elusive hand, maybe an increase in your buy-in amount amount is the answer. As we all know, buying in on fairly short money adds more stress to an already pressurized situation, affecting your ability to make solid decisions. On the other hand, where I live and work, there is a state university, and we get a lot of rookie type players, and I watch them regularly buy-in with thirteen or so crumpled singles, and somehow manage to cash out four or five hundred through spot play in the effin' Field! Go figure... :red: Anyway, whatever plan you implement, I wish you the very best success!
     
    #23
  4. basicstrategy777, Feb 10, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    Good luck at the tables Grizz.

    I think your betting scheme is a good one. Have at least 3 numbers working.

    777
     
    #24
  5. KokomoJoe4, Feb 11, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

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    Yes, best of luck in Vegas Grizzoola. It goes without saying to play however you are comfortable, but here I go again- lol.

    IF you get ahead, and IF you feel up to it, the EASIEST and FASTEST way to make a nice buck at craps, is to increase your bet significantly, or at the very least increase the odds significantly, as you are winning. We all know that the more time spent at the table, the more likely we lose. On occasion, the dice will continue to pass. If you are betting bigger and bigger as you win, you have an opportunity to win big. Personally, I will always take such a risk. Hell, my play is normally so boring with a single or at most two bets, that I need such excitement, if and when the opportunity arises.

    Here's to bringing home a bundle.
     
    #25
  6. superrick, Feb 11, 2014

    superrick

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    You are only looking at one side of the pass line bet, just like everybody else and the math of the game in getting in your way of looking at what really happens when you are playing craps. I love the math guys, just ask them what happened when they went to the tables and took max odds, they get that sheepish look on their face then start stuttering and try to explain why they didn't win.

    Just because your math says, that come out roll win or lose immediately 66% of the time, It doesn't mean a thing, the math of the game is not right100% of the time. And if it was it would take 10,000 rolls for the math of the game to work its way out! You are only looking at the come out roll, not what happens after the point is established!
    Come on there 777 you got to be kidding me with this question! It's very simple, once you place that bet, there is nothing you can do, but stand there and watch it either lose or win. When you place a pass line bet it's common knowledge that you just entered into a contract with the casino and can not remove that bet until there is a decision made. Then the casino will either take it if you lose, or it will pay you even money if you get so lucky to win!
    So if you're the shooter, there is no way that you can avoid the pass line bet, because you are paying rent on a table to shoot the dice. But this doesn't mean that you have to take those so-called free odds.
    Well you can cherry pick your bets if you place your bets, therefore avoiding the come out roll if you're not the shooter. You can also cherry pick your bets if you are the shooter by not taking odds on the point that you established, and putting your money to work on my point that is more likely to be rolled.

    Your math books on the craps, say that four or ten are bad bets, so what happens when you establish one on the come out. Just because you took those so-called free odds doesn't change a thing. Most players will still take those so-called free odds, and never looked back, until they lose their bet. It's very simple, when playing craps you need some common sense, to make rational decisions about what's happening on table, and bet accordingly!
    Wrong,.. There is nothing in the casino that is free, you are paying the price with your pass line bet to get those so-called free odds, and you only get paid even money on your pass line bet!
     
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  7. The Midnight Skulker, Feb 11, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Basic Sevens has already answered your question I highlighted above: your % (disadvantage) is diluted because the same expected loss is spread over a larger bet handle. IMHO the more relevant question is whether or not laying odds dilutes the player's advantage. Back in the Usenet day this topic was debated several times. (For anyone interested in those debates look at threads in rec.gambling.craps with subjects of "How do odds on the Don't Pass reduce the house advantage?", "For a come bet is it better to have the odds working or not on the come out roll?", "Laying Odds on the Don't - Two Views" (John Patrick and I locked horns on this thread.), "Lay bet help please", and "An ongoing debate about odds". On this last thread is my basic response any time the subject of diluting the advantage one side has over the other arises.
     
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  8. TDVegas, Feb 11, 2014

    TDVegas

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    Always take odds. You will never find another bet in the casino where the house has no edge. Whether you want to take 1x, 10x or 100x is up to you and your comfort level. If you happen to be playing the don't pass, take odds because in those come out rolls you will see a lot of 7's and 11's and lose. Taking odds is one measure of offsetting that initial house edge.
     
    #28
  9. basicstrategy777, Feb 12, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    Midnite.....that 1998 quote was beautifully said. I wish I had thought of it.

    It gets rid of the clutter and brings into clear focus why to make the free odds bet.

    777
     
    #29
  10. superrick, Feb 14, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    What does the lowest house edge have to do with anything, if the shooter doesn't make the point that has been established? Do you honestly think that because a bet has a low house edge that is going to be rolled. You need to go back and do some research as to why the free odds bet was developed maybe then you'll wake up to what that bet is all about!

    Evidently nobody uses common sense when it comes to playing craps, there isn't a casino on the face of this earth that will ever give you a good bet. You guys just don't get it, you have to make that established point before your free odds bet becomes a good bet! Most players never make the point that they established, so what's that tell you? You guys are all blinded by the word free.

    The free odds bet, had to be best the marketing ploy the casinos ever came up with. You need to do yourself a favor and read Casino Operations Management by Jim Kirby and Jim Fox maybe they can open your eyes about the so-called free odds, but I seriously doubt it!

    http://www.amazon.com/Casino-Operations-Management-Jim-Kilby/dp/0471266329

    I can hear it right now, all you guys saying, why would I ever need to read a book on casino management, most craps players would never think to read anything on how casinos run. They much rather just keep believing anything that the dealers and suits tell them you, after all aren't they the experts on the game craps?
     
    #30
  11. KokomoJoe4, Feb 14, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

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    Super,


    Unless you are professing that the game not be played, your argument re odds is a pretty weak one.

    Many play the game for enjoyment and with the hope and thought of making a few bucks while at it. If there is a better way to do so than taking odds, I haven't yet run across it. We are all aware that craps is a negative expectation game. I assume you are aware that people do win at the game, sometimes win big.

    If what you are saying is that by avoiding the placement of odds you are more likely to hold onto your money, I'm not necessarily going to disagree with you; as Do players we are the underdog on every established point. But without odds, you're only going to be winning even money, 7:6, 7:5, 9:5 or vigorish reduced payments. I prefer the opportunity to make more betting less that comes with the placement of odds. To each his own.

    Your logic re odds suggest to me that you would profess the laying of maximum odds to be a very good thing, but you have NOT said this. Afterall, the seven you hope for playing the Don't is the statistical favorite every time.
     
    #31
  12. TDVegas, Feb 14, 2014

    TDVegas

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    If you are on the don't side, odds favor a 7 out before a point is hit. In that scenario, while odds pay less, mathematically the 7 should appear more often than any other number.

    But, I'm interested...
    Strictly from a mathematical point of view and payout odds, taking the odds bet does lower the house edge.
     
    #32
  13. Grizzoola, Feb 14, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    I'm agreeing w/ superrick on this. We understand the odds bet does all kinds of good things for the player: low HA, etc. All I intended in the OP is to point to the fact that, as he points out, as far as HA is concerned, other than winning more, putting more money on the table does not guarantee a win, HA, be damned. I do think the odds bet is a good bet (I may differ w/ superrick on this.) but like everything else, make it in moderation according to your bankroll. KJ4 gets a high out of loading up on odds. That's his style. He's well aware of what he's doing.

    But, there seems to be this mantra to always take/lay full odds. Well, it depends on your bankroll. There's all kinds of money management advice about this. It gets down to, the more money you have, the more options you have. And, it gets to how much you're putting on the table at any one time. You can put more money on one bet than you can when you have 2 or 3 bets, given your bankroll . It's your choice. It's a gamble.
     
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  14. TDVegas, Feb 14, 2014

    TDVegas

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    The game is for enjoyment. Personally, I woud gather no enjoyment by taking max odds and losing a $200 bank roll in 4-5 rolls. Short term expectations vary greatly. I advise people to take 1x odds to start. If they are in a winning streak and up some money then maybe go 2x, 3x odds. Again, it's a negative expectation game and over the long haul you will lose. Take advantage of winning streaks and don't go nuts with odds bets. Short term variance can crush you. Above all, and I know it sounds corny, you are there to enjoy yourself.
     
    #34
  15. The Midnight Skulker, Feb 14, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

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    House advantage is a long-term parameter. It is the percentage of the player's bet handle the house expects to win after many decisions, or as Al Krigman would say, during a session of reasonable duration. It does not tell the whole story of a bet.

    The part HA does not tell is the probability of a bet winning. As you note front side odds bets lose more often than they win, but they do win occasionally. When that happens they are paid at better than even money, so much better in fact that after many decisions both the player and the casino are expected to break even.

    If a player's only goal is to obtain the maximum amount of playing time then clearly that player should make one minimum flat bet and not take/lay odds. Nevertheless, my question stands, though I will rephrase it.

    During a session of reasonable duration your Pass/Come bets establish points. You have sufficient funds in your rack to meet your playing time goal for that session. What bets can you make with that money in your rack to give yourself the best chance to win?
     
    #35
  16. superrick, Feb 14, 2014

    superrick

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    There is a big difference in the reason why you should take odds, one of the biggest misconceptions about the so-called free odds bet is the low house advantage. I positively see more people losing money betting on what all the books say is a great bet, and that bet is betting either the 6 or the 8! There are so many times that went to 6 or the 8 has been established as the point, the shooter will never make it.

    It should be common knowledge that most shooters will never get past four rolls of the dice, and if they do, they never will make it past the eight rolls of the dice. With that said, some of those rolls will be crap numbers, or nonpaying box numbers. I'm not going to get into the math about how many times you see the shooter's never getting past eight rolls of the dice.
    Craps tables going cycles whereas the dice can go all the way around the table without one shooter making the point. Taking those so-called free odds can be a death sentence to your bankroll. Call it whatever you may, if you're not playing the right-side of the table, all your doing with the so-called free odds is adding to your misery, by losing your money faster!

    If everybody has been making their point that was established and you have the bankroll take the odds as long you don't get too carried away. Now that's if the point that has been established shows a good frequency of be in rolled. If the point that was established, just happened to be a 10, and nobody has rolled any 10's take the odds money that you would have placed and put it on a box number that has a high frequency of being rolled.

    Craps is a game about money management, your money needs to be on points that are being rolled. Place bets are truly a craps players best friend, because the player has control over his bets and can be taken down at any time, therefore given the players the flexibility they need to win. If I'm shooting, there are plenty of times, that I will never take the so-called free odds on points that I have not been rolling. I much rather have the chips placed on the box number that I have been rolling.

    When you understand that the so-called free odds bet is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get players to bet the pass line, you stand a better chance of winning while you're playing craps.
     
    #36
  17. KokomoJoe4, Feb 14, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

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    Re the place bets, you make this statement as if you know when to have your place bets on or off - obviously you do not, but it is conceded that you do have control of the wager. Concerning the four rolls or fewer for the seven-out, good luck with your place bet. If you've only placed one number and it hit you're up a buck or so; depending on the size of your bet, maybe ten bucks. If you've placed two to five numbers, oh well.

    Obviously most astute craps players live by the place bet. Loads of money sometimes are made with this method of play. Close observation of my own play over a lot of years has shown me I have lost a good bit more than I have won when placing/buying. This has been my experience, and I'm not fighting it - I seldom place or buy anymore. I'll stick with a Pass or a Come, start w/ single or double odds and hope to get ahead by enough to make some bigger wagers.



    [It should be common knowledge that most shooters will never get past four rolls of the dice, and if they do, they never will make it past the eight rolls of the dice. When you understand that the so-called free odds bet is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get players to bet the pass line, you stand a better chance of winning while you're playing craps.[/quote]
     
    #37
  18. basicstrategy777, Feb 14, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    Grizz......be aware, this guy has been kicked off/laughed off/discreditied from several craps boards.

    The reason is because he holds onto and preaches falsehoods regarding the game. He refuses to admit he is wrong inspite of many people, much smarter than him, laying out the error of his ways. He ignors them. He insists that what he says is correct but he cannot back it up with the math. He considers his way as the best way and that his statements are factual.. They are his facts and no one elses. You can listen to him if you choose, but I would suggest against it.

    What's worse, to me, is he goes under many aliases and doesn't have the stones to stick with one handle. Here he was last known as falcon. I called him a fool many months ago and he remains one.

    777
     
    #38
  19. TDVegas, Feb 14, 2014

    TDVegas

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    "When you understand that the so-called free odds bet is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get players to bet the pass line, you stand a better chance of winning while you’re playing craps."
    ----------
    So, take the odds on the don't pass side then. I'm more partial to the don't side simply because you will likely see more 7 outs than you will points being made. You lose more on the come out roll but you hope to make it up on the back end. What I like about the don't pass is that if you can get past that first roll 7-11, you have a bet that no other casino game offers....an edge over the house. Again, the HA is played out not based on which is the likely outcome but rather what you are getting paid on that outcome. In the case of the 4-10, 2-1 odds.
     
    #39
  20. superrick, Feb 15, 2014

    superrick

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    I have a question for you basicstrategy777 , who are your writing about in the above quote?
     
    #40