What do you like set your dice to?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by Jacob, Jan 6, 2009.


  1. Jacob

    Jacob Administrator
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    Whats your favorite set? I've been using the 3 "V"

    I haven't been noticeably more successful, but its fun to look like I know what I'm doing :)
     
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  2. MotorCity, Jan 7, 2009

    MotorCity

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    I know what your talking about when you say you want to look like you know what you are doing. I've only played craps once and had no clue what I was doing. It's pretty easy to get wrapped up in it when you have people standing around you. I didn't win anything but I had fun.
     
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  3. UpsideDown, Jan 7, 2009

    UpsideDown

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    I learned to play craps for the first time at our annual Christmas Party when we had Casino Night. The dealer I was standing next to was very helpful and showed me how to play the numbers and when to put a bet on the pass line and what the other bets meant. I believe I have found my new favorite game. Seems like your money could go a long ways with a lucky shooter.
     
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  4. onetime77, Jan 7, 2009

    onetime77

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    Craps is a great time when you have a good group of people at the table. I've seen some crazies though that get really upset when things aren't going the right way. That's when it can get a bit strange.

    I'm a big fan of craps. I can't control dice or anything, but it is still a great time. I've seen people who try to control dice and it looks like a bunch of bunk to me. I saw something on A&E one time about these guys that could do it. It looked like it took a bunch of skill to master something like that. I don't have the time or a teacher to get that into it though.
     
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  5. herculeshitme, Jan 11, 2009

    herculeshitme

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    I know I can't control dice. I haven't seen anyone that can. I saw a guy pretend like he could (he would alsways set the dice to the same place when he threw), but he would never get on any kind of streak to make you think he actually knew what he was doing.
     
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  6. pokerface, Jan 18, 2009

    pokerface

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    I don't know if I can really control the dice or if it just feels like I can sometimes when I am winning. Either way, I sure don't care about what type of dice I am using, I leave that up to the house.
     
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  7. filthysanches, Jul 13, 2009

    filthysanches

    filthysanches Member

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    My favorite dice set is the hardway set. This seems to be the most effective in that it requires two pitches to either the left or the right to be in danger of hitting the dreaded seven.

    What I've noticed being a common misconception of "dice control" is the idea that one can determine what numbers the dice will land. Controlling the dice is more of a game of duck duck goose. you set the dice grip the dice and waft them towards the end of the table with a gentle backspin with just enough energy to make it to the wall. If the dice spin evenly, stay together and hit softly the outcome will not be seven. Its an avoidance game, dont hit the seven thats all, duck duck goose run and run you might but you will eventually seven out, how long that takes is where dice control comes into play. The longer the roll the more chances to win money, thats the beauty of the game. Remember, there are too many factors that lie in the path of the dice to determine what the exact outcome will be. So for those noobs thinking of making a mint by calling "stupid crapper" bets like the hardways or hoping inside numbers, remember to look at the house edge on those numbers, and remember even the best dice setters only have a small edge on average over the house, the key is to bet intelligently. Oh and if you are planning on learning to set and control, practice is very important, I would liken it to bowling or horseshoes, If your good at manual sports that require micro-managed movements this is the game you will advance in.

    Dont bother with seminars unless you have money you would like to throw away, or you could just give it to me and i can pelt you with dice because the sting of getting ripped off is much the same. The only group that I have seen that stresses betting strategy as much as technique is Golden Touch Craps, but theys expensive real expensive, but they do have a book so buy that and build a practice table out of plywood, felt from a fabric store, alligator rubber from one of many places online, and ask your local casino for souvenir dice they usually give you some. And practice.
     
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  8. jonapple, Sep 25, 2009

    jonapple

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    I read alot of craps info over the web and the sets i have much luck with are the 2v set which has fours and tens all around, I tend to hit alot of 9's when i use this set also 4's and 10's and I also use the 6-5/4-4 set when i use this I throw alot of 3's and 11's but since i rarely ever bet the prop bets or hardways I make more money for other ppl than or myself. I usually dont throw alot of sevens when I use these sets.
     
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  9. gemgo

    gemgo Member

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    on the come out roll i use the 7 set. where all the combos of the dice add up to 7. after that i use the hardway set where the 2,3,4,5 are paired up on the dice.
     
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  10. Ironwig, Jan 11, 2010

    Ironwig

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    i like filthysanches's reply
    everything was right on
    everyone thinks that dice control is to hit certain numbers, and its not
    its to minimize the appearance of the seven and increase your edge and chances of making money
    on the comeout roll , i set the 7 set and on other throws, i use the hardway set
    i did a vide on yourtube showin the different sets

    youtube.com/user/ironwig

    ass far as golden touch craps, they are excellent
    if you dont have the money to get the dvd, itsok, just practice
    build your rig and practice
    thats what i did
    check out the vids
     
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  11. goatcabin, Feb 10, 2010

    goatcabin

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    Actually, there is no way to set the dice so that there is no seven combination on axis. The basic idea behind de-randomizing dice is to set them to a particular orientation and throw them in such a way that they spin about their horizontal axis and hit the surface of the table and the pyramids in such a way that they remain stable around that axis, with the result that the faces on that axis cannot show. If successful, this reduces the number of resultant combinations from 36 to 16.

    There doesn't seem to be any consistent terminology for the six possible sets. I suggest naming them by the faces on each spin axis, like this

    6-1, 6-1
    6-1, 4-3
    6-1, 5-2
    4-3, 5-2
    4-3, 4-3
    5-2, 5-2

    Unless you believe people can control not only the spin axis but which of the four "allowed" faces on each die shows, it doesn't matter which faces are on top when you set the dice.

    Actually, any of the three sets with both dice spinning around the same axis can be arranged so that all the hardway combinations show. All of these sets can be considered "sevens" sets, because they have four sevens among the sixteen "allowed" outcomes. The differences are in the other twelve combinations resulting from an "on-axis" throw. The 6-1, 6-1 set has the advantage on the pass comeout throw of not allowing any craps numbers; you also "lose" the "yo", but you have a 25% chance to win on the comeout and no chance to lose.

    Once a point is established, the 6-1, 5-2 set leaves two each of 5, 9 and 7 and three each of 6 and 8, but just one each of 4 and 10, while the 6-1, 4-3 set leaves two each of 4 through 10, making it preferred if the point is 4 or 10.

    By making a frequency table of on-axis combinations for each set, one can determine sets that might be used for different types of bets. However, since the shooter must have a line bet, it seems to me to make sense to target that bet, as well as placing the other inside numbers when the point is one of them.

    When I first read about this stuff, on rec.gambling.craps, I did all the math and figured out what my betting strategy would be, then started practicing setting the dice to my desired orientation as unobtrusively as possible, until I could get them set right with hardly any delay at all. Then I started practicing at home, where I have a craps layout, but no back wall with pyramids; I just tossed them against a big book, an Atlas of the World. Although I did not keep track of each roll, I did have a couple of very good sessions, net-wise. When I went to Reno, I found that the real conditions, having to send the dice all the way down the table and hit the wall, were a "whole 'nother thing". Once the dice hit those pyramids, they bounce off in any direction, and the spin axis is just as likely to come up as the others.

    As to the video on the History channel, I thought the dice were bouncing all over the place, too. A guy on RGC claimed to have achieved about an 8.5:1 ratio of rolls to sevens, compared to the expected 6:1. If that were the case, one could win consistently, but this guy was trying to sell his course to people for $700. Why bother, if he could win consistently?

    Just for fun, I set up some alternate probability files in WinCraps, assuming 10, 15 and 20 % efficacy in keeping the dice on axis. I wrote an auto-bet file that uses probability files based on my sets described above, but with only 10% of the rolls staying on axis. I started with a bankroll of $10,000 and did sessions of 200 rolls (about two hours' play), betting $100 pass and taking $1000 odds, waiting to seven out after reaching 200 rolls. I ran 10,000 such sessions. Some results:

    mean outcome: +$186 (less than 2% of starting bankroll)
    median outcome: +$100
    mode: (-$600 to -$400) (these are "bins")
    player advantage: 0.81%

    busts: 63 (0.63%)
    <= -$5000: 859 (8.59%)
    <= -$1000: 3838 (38.38%)
    losing sessions: 4794
    breakeven sessions: 109
    winning sessions: 5097
    >= +$1000: 4177 (41.77%)
    >= +$5000: 1041 (10.41%)
    >= +$10000: 73 (0.73%)

    Of course, you could divide all those numbers by 10 if you only wanted to bet $10 flat, $100 odds.
    So, even if you were confident you could keep the dice on axis 10% of the time, you could expect only a slight edge, less than what the house enjoys on the pass line with random dice. Maybe you think you can do better than 10%.

    I remain very skeptical.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
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  12. filthysanches, Feb 11, 2010

    filthysanches

    filthysanches Member

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    goatcabin,

    Indeed this is not a perfect system, but even a little edge over the house is better than none. average random rollers
    think that overcoming the "randomizers" that the table presents is impossible or overwhelming. those people have little
    confidence in the human as a precision tool. The brain alone is more complex and powerful than any super computer that
    has ever been built. the human hand is capable of near microscopic precision movements. Not only that, the human nervous
    system gives rise to muscle memory, a phenomenon that can allow certain practiced movements to be duplicated over and
    over with near perfection, and without any concious thought. Dice manipulation has been around for a long time, in fact there
    is a little wire on the craps table to stop people from sliding the dice, proof that controlling the dice itself is possible. I
    have been fairly athletic all my life, the way i can describe dice manipulation is much like bowling.

    lets think of bowling for a second.
    Bowling has randomizers just like the craps table, you have the ball requires grip, arm movement, placement, and speed. You
    have the the lane is it oily,? is it dry,? is it made of wood or synthetic wood? You have the pins, where are you going to put
    the ball,? how will the pins scatter?. All of these aspects cause random results overall, yet people overcome these, by lots of
    practice in order to commit the movements to their muscle memory.

    Dice manipulation is much like bowling in that grip, arm movement, rotation, table consistency, placement and alligator back are
    all things that need to be overcome. So those concerns that you have are valid and like i have said before, most people that
    set dice have no idea what they are doing. most have absolutely no real form or have ever practiced a day in their life.

    As you have mentioned, the diamonds that line the wall do cause a big problem for people who set the dice. But if your dice are
    scattering after they hit the wall then your doing something wrong. Much of what someone should concern themselves with is
    speed and wall hit. you should only barley kiss the wall and the dice should die at the foot of the wall. This is working off the
    concept that most of the energy should be transfered to the table on the landing. This takes lots and lots of concentration
    and practice because the dice need to hit flat on the table, but it is possible. When this does happen you can see how many
    times the dice pitch or dont pitch when they land. which leads me to your next issue of sets.

    Dice sets do have a function, because if you do things correctly the dice move as if they were one die. With the same momentum
    hitting in simular fashion, and of course just kissing the gatorback, they don't tend to turn at different rates. If they are turning the
    same and land with little scatter then the set that you use does create a difference. 3v 2v, I don't recommend because they don't
    leave much room for error for sevens, whereas the hardway set requires one die to rotate a full rotation ahead or behind the other
    in order to hit a seven.

    But, and this is a huge but, betting strategy is the most important aspect of dice manipulation. Trust me on this when i say
    dice setting alone does not win you money. Most of the time I just go to shoot, i have no money so ill just shoot. this doesn't
    work that well cause i loose it all eventually no matter how well I'm shooting. But when I have the money for a good, progressive
    regressive betting system, and I'm shooting well, I come up.

    But I agree stay skeptical I was, but I was also tired of loosing, and as a random roller I was sevening out damn near immediately
    after establishing a point. After a skeptical look into the physics behind setting, I drew a parallel to some of the physical activites
    I did. I gave it a try with some success and more confidence. I saw the same special you did, remember that it was a dramatization
    of reality. I also saw the golden touch fellas practice at a regulation table in real time video, no cuts. Practiced professionals have
    in-human placement of dice.But again they do seven out they just don't take a bit longer. But to think that you have no influence in
    the only casino game that you have a physical link to the outcome, is narrow-minded thinking. But you seem to be a person of numbers.
    Here is the only credible tests that I have found, inconclusive due to the size and scope, but something to chew on none the less.
    http://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix3.html

    I leave you with something I already posted to a skeptic. There is a reason all the records are held by controlled shooters.
    "Praise Little Joe"
    -Filthy
     
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  13. ChumpChange, Feb 14, 2010

    ChumpChange

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    Since dealers got pissy about bouncing both dice off the backwall, hoping the dice will deadbounce the way they land on the Passline chip stacks on the other end of the table is just encouraging the dealers to get mad at you.
     
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  14. tercol58, Mar 8, 2010

    tercol58

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    I have a question on dice setting the dice. If you set your dice to the 3v set for example and you stack your dice one atop the other for your grip how would the set look
    threes both on top or on the side? Or maybe either way is fine.
     
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  15. dados

    dados Member

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    It Never ends ! Matingale , now Dice Control ,

    THE SYSTEM PLAYERS , THE WEAK PLAYERS , THE LONG SHOT OR IDIOT PLAYERS , THE UNPREPARED PLAYERS WILL MAKE UP FOR THE SMALL MINORITY WHO -ARE-MATURE PLAYERS. this has been the results of my more than 50 years as a bettor and a bookie. i doubt the next 50 years will be much difFerent .SAM GRAFSTEIN -THE EINSTEIN OF DICE.

    HOW RIGHT YOU ARE SAM ! ( The above was written almost 20 Years ago )

    Set them(DICE) anyway you want , so long as they takes a couple of bounces , i will book your bet !


    One arm Annie was the best , she is retired now . (Wonder why -you guessed it !)

    One other message Sam - the next 50 years will be the same for dice book sales ----YOU MAKE DICE A BASEBALL GAME (ACE PITCHER)AND THEY SELL LIKE HOT CAKES !

    For minority sales try www.diceprofession.com .

    Dados(correr el gallo)
     
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  16. Flash

    Flash Member

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    I use the 7's set for comeout rolls and the hardway set after that w/ sixes on top and 4's facing me. It seems whenever I seven out it's 99 times out of 100 that it's the 6 - 1.. which i may just start hopping for a few bucks from now on. I've had some monster rolls using this set.. I've also thrown the 6 -1 on the very first toss many times.
     
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  17. lspaziano2, Mar 27, 2010

    lspaziano2

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    I too was a dice control skeptic. I knew it could be done, I just didn't know if I (or anybody else) could actually do it.
    So I started practicing and eventually, after about 30,000 practice throws, I was good.

    But, I'm an engineer and a scientist. Seeming like it works vs working are two different things. So I calculated and graphed the normal distribution of roll lengths, then I throw another 10,000 practice rolls, then I graphed my roll length against the random data. The graph clearly showed that i was consistently having roll lengths of about 8% better than normal distribution.

    To answer the question, I like the 2V set. I love the guy that said he doesn't worry about the type of dice he uses, he lets the house pick the set. LOL

    Lee
    Orlando
     
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  18. sporty, May 20, 2010

    sporty

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    Just practicing at home right now but I like the Hardways and 3V. Get lots of 6' and 8's with the 3V.
     
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  19. kvetsh, Dec 13, 2010

    kvetsh

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    The two sets I like are the 7-Set for the come-out roll, and I prefer the 2V set to make 4's & 10's because they pay better odds.
     
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  20. crapsbjrou, Dec 13, 2010

    crapsbjrou

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    I like my horizontal six's and 2v sets. Just had my first real good INFLUENCE SESSION, well three really played at 3 casinos that had a good rep for good bounce. I toke half my Blackjack bankroll of $5000 and headed to a craps tables. I was just about splitting the 2v horizontal 6's and seven's set. Usually having 2 dollar bets. Was up to $1724 when It was all said and done. But I love betting the horn.... Best bet other than the fire bet. There was just me and two-four other rollers most of the time. They would roll sometimes, but usually just pass me the dice and bet what I bet. Played for hours don't even know how long. Had about an hour and a half of losing at very end so I decided to call it quits while I was ahead. My hand was HURTING... Does that happen to any other D.I.'s But anyway I started getting heat fast... Do not hate me for this, but when I got heat I waited for the other rollers to have big bets and I would seven set it. Better them lose than me right. I mean they gonna lose anyway right might as well be sooner than later and right when I'm getting heat than not right. Survival of the fittest right... Or in the gambling world survival of the smartest right. Gotta do what I gotta do sorry but that just how it is...... Does anybody else do that also...... I do it in blackjack when I got heat instead of playing to make the dealer bust I will try to play to make him win when other players have big bets out so there bottom line isn't messed with and I can continue to play and be welcomed back with open arms right. right. Sorry bout the run on
     
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