# What am I doin' here?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by The Midnight Skulker, Oct 11, 2019.

1. lone irish digit, Oct 14, 2019

### lone irish digit Member

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This is Barney

In his book "Gambling for Dummies" the LID and sons "Jesus and Pancho" looked at all 500 and change permutations of two dices and for them to remain on axes with same wheels as what the craps personage originally set is exactly 2.789964356098763322% of the 500 and change total permutations of 2 dices. Jesus and Pancho, I believe, had help in calculations of this amazing and useful craps fact from the most greatest Max Planck and also Jethro, the son of Limeaway...

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Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
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2. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 16, 2019

### The Midnight Skulker Member

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If that is the case then "on axis" is far more restrictive than I had thought the term to be, for it then means that the dice must end up looking exactly like they were set, both top and forward faces.

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3. TDVegas, Oct 16, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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In other words....2.78% is not only his definition of "on axis"....it's sniping.

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4. DeMango, Oct 16, 2019

### DeMango Member

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Wow, just wow. Two dice that spin on a central axis produce 16 different on axis results. Notice the words axis gets used twice.

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5. TDVegas, Oct 16, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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This makes no sense to me. You've got 16 out of a possible 36 combinations covered. 97-98% of the time...it's not resulting in one of these combinations????

The toss noted in the video looks like a hardway set and looks like the axis is fairly consistent with inside and outside faces remaining constant. With some practice....this type of toss can only be achieved......how often??....and the 16 possible combinations will only happen how often?....2-3%...?

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6. DeMango, Oct 16, 2019

### DeMango Member

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TD: That’s some good weed coming out of Kansas! Of course you are right, 16/36 or 44% on axis, random.

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7. TDVegas, Oct 16, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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It just sounds to me that the same terminology is being used....but the definition is different based on who you speak to.

That's going to invite a LOT of infighting as to who is right. Without a standard definition as a benchmark....any argument becomes based on ones own idea or opinion. No wonder his on axis definition differs from others and no wonder the schools fight each other over who is "right".

I would tend to agree with you. On axis. 16 combinations. 44%.

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8. lone irish digit, Oct 16, 2019

### lone irish digit Member

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This is Barney

Kokoninga is tossing into a box or possibly nicest mattress like the .most greatest Dave Guacamole! I thought they had the Supperick's most beautiful table of the craps. Probably the pawn shop Rick has it now...

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9. TDVegas, Oct 16, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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No. Most wonderful craps table and target zone shooting detectors are for sale on my website. Search "flux capacitor" under shop. Several models.

www.shopTDVegas.com

\$59.99...

\$69.99 each...

Craps table....

\$1,799.00....bids are welcome

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10. DeMango, Oct 16, 2019

### DeMango Member

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There always was a standard definition for on axis and who cares how it got there, it was what the casino paid. Then too much weed ended up in the sunflower patch.

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11. von duck, Oct 17, 2019

### von duck Member

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Aruze, huh? I would recommend all due caution.

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12. eagleeye2, Oct 17, 2019

### eagleeye2 Member

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.......................

Midnight,

One needs to verify the result of whatever technique they use to achieve a net positive result, when combined with their Betting Strategy, as follows:

1) First that it actually results in a NET POSITIVE RETURN, on their practice table. Charting #'s hit (Sum of two DICE & NET GAIN) is absolutely the BEST way to so verify!

2) Second, that it actually results in a NET POSITIVE RETURN, in ACTUAL CASINO PLAY!

If 1 or 2 above fail, it's back to the practice table & or Casino to undertake whatever MODIFICATION it takes to achieve both 1 & 2 above.

No, none here have stated that it was EASY, but it is necessary if you wish to be a WINNER @ CASINO CRAPS!

eagleeye2

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13. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 17, 2019

### The Midnight Skulker Member

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SERIOUSLY?! The guy can't afford so much as a skunk hat, never mind a full craps table.
I suspect the same obfuscation is present when it comes to actually tossing the dice. Who's going to pay to learn the LJ, GTC, PARR, and/or Masse shot when, for a few dollars more and two Wheaties box tops, you can become the first at your table to execute [ta-dah] The Captain Wizbang Triple Gramalkin Vault Assaulter. But wait, there's more! Take the advanced after glow session (sold separately) where you will be shown how to add the crowd-pleasing half twist and put Barney to shame with the casino chicks. Get rid of those unsightly trailing zeros after your bank balance, but hurry.
The premium accommodations , which feature in-"room" running water and between-sessions bird watching opportunities, are filling up fast. Enroll today!

(I am a non-dice-influencing spokesperson and got a little carried away by this exciting offer.)

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14. Mssthis1, Oct 17, 2019

### Mssthis1 Member

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Those were all pretty tosses, pretty random. lol. Too much spin and too much altitude for starters. If he would have shown what they were doing after landing those dice would be splattering everywhere.

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15. TDVegas, Oct 17, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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Ok...so the idea is more "float" than spin....and remaining on axis. I would agree, when those dice hit, they are likely going to splatter. The high arc probably won't help things either. Doesn't the same "splatter" hold true for the helicopter toss?...stacked dice and you send them off spinning them like a top.

I think the guy in the video is Travis McGee's (Harley) buddy, Koganinja?

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16. TDVegas, Oct 17, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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Ok, this may explain why there are so many different shots and claims. Why, as a teacher would I copy someone else? The selling point would be new and improved, not copy.

Since tennis was invented until now....there are 3 grips. Continental, eastern and western. That's it. There has been no "new and improved". I'm pretty sure golf has fallen under the same standard umbrella.

I don't blame the schools or teachers for coming up with something new...it's a way to differentiate yourself. Otherwise, your only selling point is "I'm going to teach you someone else's shot & grip..."but I get better results". That could be problematic on the evidence front.

Que sera...interesting points of view. No harm.

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Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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17. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 17, 2019

### The Midnight Skulker Member

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Yes, but only for the top die. (I confess I have not actually tried the following experiment, but I think the results would be as described.)
1. Prepare a semi-hard flat surface, perhaps by placing a magazine on it to act as a landing area.
2. Stack two dice one on top of the other and note the up face of the bottom one.
3. Grasp the stack ice tong style by the bottom die.
4. Elevate the stack over the flat surface by resting your elbow to the side of the landing area with your "tongs" parallel to it.
5. Release the stack in as vertical position as possible.
6. Record the top face of both dice individually.
7. Repeat steps 2-6 some multiple of 6 number of times.
8. Run a chi-square goodness of fit test against true random on both dice individually.
My prediction is that the bottom die will show a distribution significantly different from random. That is the goal of throwing the dice as a stack: to preserve the setting of the bottom die. This setting can be exploited; for example if you favor the appearance of "5" on one die on comeout rolls you have two natural winners, no natural losers, and one each of the points 6-10.

Unfortunately, the use of such a technique is too obvious -- for one thing there is a loud click as the stack makes contact with the table and the dice collide with each other -- and its results can be too good. IIRC I have seen posts from pit dwellers that dealers are trained to be on the lookout for stackers, making mastery of the toss self-eliminating.

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18. TDVegas, Oct 17, 2019

### TDVegas Member

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Ah....so what I'm hearing is that this toss might not be acceptable at certain casinos, but possibly accepted at others?

We are not talking "illegal toss" as I believe craps rules are more about "house rules" or interpretation...but it sounds like this toss may be persona non grata at some places....regardless if arc and hitting the back wall are adhered to.

Now I'm not sure....LOL. Second time reading, it sounds very Benny Hill'ish.
Wink wink?

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19. DeMango, Oct 17, 2019

### DeMango Member

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Most all set shots, given a similar toss to a specific landing zone will produce a pattern of influence. It’s called physics.

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20. von duck, Oct 17, 2019

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