mmm hmm... now I see why you were kicked off a different board. The math behind comparing the bets is absolutely relevant... you can compare the PL only without odds to the Place bet with same dollar amounts. I'm guessing that you just don't know how to do it properly, or you know that it shows that you are wrong. You claim PL bettors are not being honest to newbies because you think the bet is only better under certain conditions, and you are wrong. It is you who is not being honest because you recognize the difference between Pass Line bets and Put bets in that the former has a chance to win on the come-out roll, but you refuse to acknowledge this difference when you compare them to Place bets in terms of net wins. Perhaps it is you who is the newbie. Falcon, do you agree that the “real” math says that the Pass Line (without odds) is better than a Place bet?