The Worst in 44 Years

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by betwthelines, May 14, 2016.

  1. wonko33, May 25, 2016

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    if he thinks they are cheating him in way that can be exploited , sounds logical to me to go back..... except the part where the tribal police drags him to the backroom :)
     
    #121
  2. TDVegas, May 25, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I thought about that too..but if they are cheating one way, what's preventing them from cheating another way?

    Let's say he figures it out and starts to bet the don't...if they are that brazen to purposefully cheat---what's preventing another "switch"?

    Honestly, I think I would run---especially if the perception is that the cheating is being done on purpose. The fact that he wants to know "if" they are cheating him implies he thinks they know. If they didn't know the bad dice were "cheating" to favor them...how would they know the bad dice aren't favoring him?

    If its cheating against him...then they know what they are doing and likely will know when he decides to change the betting to capitalize. Then sleight of hand happens and his "don't dice" disappear.

    What's that saying...once a cheat, always a cheat?
     
    #122
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  3. Craps Poopshoot, May 25, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    I charted the table when a friend of mine who has a double doctors degree (math and engineering) told me that the casino used bad dice. I had to know for myself if that was true, so I tracked the table. I also wanted to know if the dice could be exploited by the don'ts, and the answer came to be that the Don'ts had a lower house edge but was not an advantage play.
    The NIGC agent admitted to me, when I talked to him about how they regulate Tribal Casinos, that Tribal casinos have and can use dice that produce 'strange rolls', however the NIGC only regulates Class 2 games (bingo, live keno, scratch-it tickets). The Oregon State Police Indian Gaming Division regulates the class 3 machines, as to where status and location, and the agent I spoke to said that other than the Tribe informing the State as to who they are buying casino gear from, and where the machines are at, the do no inspections or enforcement of gaming. They just want to ensure that the Tribe does not sell slot machines to the general public.

    Attorney Bob Narcessian, foremost legal authority on Tribal casinos, has said that the Tribes can do anything they want. see my write up here.

    Is the casino cheating me? No, they just run a very tight casino. Hey, single number hit on roulette only pays 32:1 not the 35:1 like in Vegas. The roulette wheel also spends faster than normal wheels making clocking and dealer aiming next to impossible.

    My views is that the Tribes run the casinos how they want to run them, and it is my due diligence to determine what I play, how I play, and IF I PLAY.

    Anyway...

    I'm going to Vegas more these days and only to the Tribal casinos on a promotion day. I play VP when there, and play don'ts on the Craps tables, however it is a very slow grind and sometimes very frustrating. There is another one about 35 minutes down the same road that has far better dice but a helluva bouncy table!

    There will be a new casino opening within a 30 minute drive from me. They will be operating under the guidance of the Mohegan sun casino. So, when it opens we will see what there is to see.
     
    #123
  4. Craps Poopshoot, May 25, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    This casino runs two distinctively different dice. I have seen them swap dice when the table gets to hot, and when it gets to cold and all the players are on the don'ts. I have seen them swap dice twice in one hour.
    This tribal casino is very tight. If bad dice is cheating in your book, then so be it.
     
    #124
  5. TDVegas, May 25, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I hear ya...I'm still going on the side that if I think anything is out of whack, I'm going to run from it. I would do the same with a mechanic, accountant or Doctor. I want no part of trying to fight a battle against someone who might cheat or use inferior products or provide suspect medical care.

    My view stems from the idea if things are off on one aspect, they can be off on others.

    If you have any suspicions...I would wait for Vegas or find a new hobby.
     
    #125
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  6. wonko33, May 25, 2016

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    That is totally not the same TD- there is no way to profit from a bad accountant etc. If I was cheated by a casino and I could find a way to stick it to them I would consider it.

    They would get burned by the bunch of do players at the table, what? they're going to take a dive from 10 players to stick it to 2 don't players?


    And that's assuming the dice are rigged, another explanation could be that the dice are just "lowest bidder made" junk. But then who knows? Harley talked about bad factories but never said if the bad manufacturing bias was constant or just dependent on the batch.

    ( I never understood Harley's jump from the dice that are bias because the factories are bad and the casinos deliberately switching specific funny dice. To order specific biased dice, wouldn't the factory have to be able to make a consistent product? Do they jimmy the dice themselves? Who knows? Hey maybe the attendees will )
     
    #126
  7. TDVegas, May 25, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    The first cheat is always going to have the upper hand. Even if you find a way to cheat the cheat...then cheat the cheat who found the cheat.

    I guess I'm on the side that gambling and winning is tough enough with a fair playing field...I just want no part of having to figure how someone or dice have changed the odds.

    To each his own.
     
    #127
  8. Craps Poopshoot, May 25, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    The casinos just buy the dice. In the case of the Tribal casinos locally, I know specifically what manufacture they get them from because the State Police list them. In the case of the tribal casino I have been talking about, I know that they buy from GPI. Researching GPI we know that the dice are made in Mexico. Companies go to Mexico for cheap labor, use of cheaper toxic or inferior materials and abbreviated processes, that lead to inferior manufacturing. This has been an issue for many companies that went to mexico with the high reject and failure rate of what is made, however because the labor is so cheap they can absorb this and still make far more money than if they stated in the States.

    My conclusion is that the Tribal casinos simply buy the dice because they are cheap. Cheap dice are not going to be manufactured well, nor inspected for balance and perfection. I have never seen the pit boss at the tribal casinos measure the dice or do anything with them other than unwrap them from the foil and put them on the table.

    Nevada Law only says that the dice have to be equal on all sides, nothing however on face weights being equal.

    The Agent at the NIGC did say that unbalanced dice will create strange rolls, and he knows that the Tribes dice are not balanced. I know that the dealers know this fact about the dice, and that the Tribal Gaming commission (those that decide what is what for the tribal casino) know this too. It simply comes down to:

    They buy the dice who has supplied dice to casinos for decades. No need to mention that in 2008 the manufactured pulled out of the USA and went in to Mexico. Heck, Freightliner still claims to be a USA company but their manufacturing facilities in in Mexico. People still buy Freightliner trucks all the time and have no clue as to where the truck was made at.

    With cheap labor and inferior materials used, batch quality consistency is probably non-existent. Abbreviated manufacturing processes and cutting corners will leave a lot of slop and inconsistencies in any manufactured goods.

    GPI supplies dice to 90% of the Las Vegas casinos.

    EDIT: I have an video of testing the balance of these dice that ill put up shortly.
     
    #128
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  9. The Midnight Skulker, May 25, 2016

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I am interested to see if the unbalance is consistent (e.g. all dice are six-heavy) or variable. Consistent imbalance suggests intent to me, but I claim no expertise on the subject.
     
    #129
  10. Craps Poopshoot, May 25, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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  11. wonko33, May 26, 2016

    wonko33

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    exactly, so where do they get the intentionally biased dice? All those Mexico factories are junk , who knows what comes out of there? You say they switch dice according to the situation, where do they get those specific dice? I have an idea but I am curious about what you think.
     
    #131
  12. Craps Poopshoot, May 26, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    I don't think there is any Intentionally derived motivation here at all. I think that the unbalanced dice is simply the fact of poor manufacturing methods and inferior materials used. I do not think there is any conspiracy as, TDVegas claims there must be, nor do I think that the casinos ever did anything other than just order the dice, and what showed up is what they got.

    Shitty dice may be OK for the tribal casinos and those casinos that have a reputation for being tight and would rather NOT even have a Craps table. However, bad dice for casinos that want High rollers and whales is bad for business as such players simply move on to other casinos where the dice roll far more fair, or they simply stop coming to the casino all together.
     
    #132

  13. 7uwin

    7uwin Member

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    It just seems to me on this forum some posters have the attitude that their strategy and DI skills are so strong that if they lose someone has to be cheating.
     
    #133
  14. wonko33, May 26, 2016

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    I thought you said you saw them switch the dice out.

    Do they just do that on a hot table hoping the next set is bad in a way that favors them?
     
    #134
  15. TDVegas, May 26, 2016

    TDVegas

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    What the hell are you talking about no conspiracy or not doing things deliberately or intentionally? This is basically exactly what you are claiming with your own words.

    Quite honestly..if this is the case, you have NO choice but to run and never enter that casino. If the casino is playing cat and mouse, when you make a move, they make a counter move to prevent you from taking advantage...you are simply the victim of massive cheating and fraud

    Nothing you can do will overcome that. They have the move.

    This goes back to my thinking if you suspect a problem, you cannot go back into that casino. They have counter measures to your counter measures.
     
    #135
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  16. The Midnight Skulker, May 26, 2016

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Ah yes, the Good Old Days here. A shame one of the old timers left to form his own rock group: Hardeight and the Magnets. :(
    I have some problems with your video and particularly with the conclusion you draw from the tests you filmed.
    • Both dice tested do indeed seem to be unbalanced, but because they consistently end up in the same position, not because they reverse their direction of rotation. This reversal could easily be attributed to the die creeping up the side of the cup's caliper due to friction, then sinking back to the base of the cup when that spin-generated friction is no longer present. IOW it's a form of simple harmonic motion.
    • The two dice tested were apparently from the same stick but were unbalanced in different ways. Did you test any other dice from that stick or any other stick from that manufacturer? Did they show only one- and six-heavy biases?
    • A die can be spun on a caliper on any of four different axes, but you spun yours on only one axis. I suggest you would need to test at least one of the other axes before concluding how that die was unbalanced.
    My point is that a mixed bag of biases, particularly ones that oppose each other (e.g. one-heavy with six-heavy), tend to cancel out in the long run. Obviously any given combination of two biased dice can produce a "weird" distribution, but I contend the overall distribution produced by the many different biases present in a particular lot of dice will appear to be unbiased.
     
    #136
  17. Craps Poopshoot, May 26, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    Again, it may be that inconsistency in quality of the dice, where some stick roll in favor the the players and others in favor of the house.
     
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  18. Craps Poopshoot, May 26, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    I don't see a conspiracy, however if you do then perhaps you know more than I do. Can you share?
     
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  19. TDVegas, May 26, 2016

    TDVegas

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    You said you saw them changing dice out on hot tables. You said there are 2 distinct types of dice. You've seen them swap out TWICE in an hour.

    Jeez, man..it's staring you in the face that something fishy could be going on and you're sitting there shrugging your shoulders?

    "Gimme all green chips"

    C'mon. I don't have absolute proof, but you've laid out some troubling evidence.
     
    #139
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  20. Craps Poopshoot, May 26, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    The point of the video is to demonstrate that a die can be unbalanced. If the die was balanced then the resting position of the die would have been random, and there be no 'pull back' from the die when it slowed down.

    The die balance tool we used was used properly. I believe anyone can get one at the Gamblers General Supply store in Las Vegas. The staff there will be more than happy to show how to use them.

    My time at the Dice Lab in Las Vegas was limited and only had time to shoot what you saw. However, anyone who wants to pursue this issue in far more detail, should contact SR or Harley who have access to the Dice Lab.
     
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