THE HOLY GRAIL for CRAPS PLAYERS

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by SevenOut, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. Dave73, Sep 16, 2013

    Dave73

    Dave73 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    2
    Before answering I'll say this:
    Think about the True Odds and the payout for Lay and Buy bets, and what they HA would be both with and without a vig.
     
    #21
  2. SevenOut, Sep 16, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,339
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    89005

    Excellent clue. Players must remember... The House is a business, not a charity or government supported.
     
    #22
  3. jkluv7, Sep 27, 2013

    jkluv7

    jkluv7 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Central Pennsylvania
    Got in now... thanks guys !!!
     
    #23
  4. SevenOut, Oct 27, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,339
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    89005
    I just love taking the Craps Mathematics from John Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling. There is a section where he presents his calculations on various bets on the Craps Table. I scanned page 303 as a very good example. What you will not find in Scarne's calculations are Hop Bets, Fire Bets and "modern" options that were either absent from the Players "menu", but common place today. So common, for example Hop Bets, that the layouts have them printed onto them. I am sure it is for the benefit of the... player.

    You need to squint to read the calculations from my scans, but give them a look over. These are only two pages out of the Craps chapter and with so many used copies available on the internet, this book would fit well with the numerous Dice Influencing volumes also available.

    This is in response to Charles101 and Pancho who are working out a Lay and Hop game by the numbers in the General Topics.
     

    Attached Files:

    #24
  5. SevenOut, Oct 27, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,339
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    89005
    Again, "Scarne on Dice" (first printed in 1945) I consider a master piece on the evolution of Craps from its British origins.

    Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling (first printed in 1961) introduced a source to the development of today's Dice Influencing. It is actually considered a form of CHEATING but with "finesse", as I put it. He calls it Cheating with Honest Dice. This is on page 323. He devotes two pages on this process that began as Cheating and now DI. Much of the perfected shooters controlling a pair of dies was... on a game played on DIRT or SAND.

    Upon a hard surface, it becomes more subjective. He considers them Controlled Shots, not Dice Influencing in 1961. The earlier 1945 book does not mention this aspect of setting dice for an outcome. The description begins on page 325. The last paragraph is so appropriate for some of the discussions on the Forum.

    "The use of sleight of hand with dice or cards is hard to expose because there is no physical evidence to prove it. Even if you can spot a controlled roll, all you can do (the table's staff) is insist on the use of a backboard and if you are voted down on that, stop playing."

    No matter how many volumes of modern books on the subject of Craps you currently possess, if you do not at least have these two Scarne volumes, your library is lacking important content. Either volume is easily found today at a used book store, or most likely through the internet at better prices. This "getting up to date material concerning Craps" is sometimes just a rehash of old techniques, games and systems with new names to hide the source(s). How often Scarne has had his "text" updated and rewritten is up to discussion, but I figure it is very common to find his ideas reworked to appear... NEWLY DISCOVERED.

    Many of the games he describes had to work with 25 cent calculations, as inflation has taken a toll on the bets made today. I still remember 25 cent chips being used Downtown Las Vegas in the 1980's. What we call Casino Craps, it was called Bank Craps, where the Casino bankrolled the Bank, not the Pass Line and Faders on the Don't providing the Bank, and the House getting their cut on each bet.

    I cannot say enough about these two books. I should refer to them more often, but the trend of Craps today is the Dice Influencing part of Craps and not developing a working SYSTEM first, and then work on the DI to benefit YOUR SYSTEM.

    I use to have a number of new soft cover copies of the New Complete volume on hand. When an aspiring Craps Player came into the shop and was working a solid game against us... I would present this player a FREE COPY. I still have several copies left from those days and anything I developed in my Craps game... I have to give credit to John Scarne.
     
    #25
  6. CrapsPlayer, Jan 7, 2014

    CrapsPlayer

    CrapsPlayer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Niagara Falls Ontario

    Hi

    Looking for an answer to your question please if possible?
    Thanks
     
    #26
  7. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 7, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    4,461
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    From the singular "number" I have hilighted I assume only one number is being laid. Unfortunately, the problem does not specify whether vigorish is collected up front or only after a win, so I will have to give two answers. Regardless of when vig is collected the player's entire $75 is returned if the bet is taken down before resolution.

    Answer #1, vig on win only

    Bettor is laying $75 to win $50 no-5 or no-9. However, the vig, $2 or $3 depending on where the house has set its break points, will be withheld from the payoff, making it $48 or $47.

    Answer #2, vig up front

    In this case, unless the table has chips with a value of less than $1, the vig would have to be $3 because 73 (= 75 - 2) is not evenly divisible by 2, 3, or 5. So bettor is laying $72 (= 75 - 3). However, any number could be the one laid.
    No-4 or no-10 pay $36.
    No-5 or no-9 pay $48.
    No-6 or no-8 pay $60.
     
    #27