THE HOLY GRAIL for CRAPS DEALERS

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by SevenOut, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. jkluv7, Oct 8, 2013

    jkluv7

    jkluv7 Member

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    When I have a lot of DC bets that keep getting picked off by a 'hot(read:lucky)' shooter, I will pull the lay odds down and Place whatever Don'ts still reside. Let's say those were the 4,5,9. During his throw, I then place the 6/8 and he hits his point of 10.
    On the C/O, I would want the Place bets for the 4,5,9 Working, but not the 6,8. What I have seen the dealers do is simply move the 6,8 Place bets into the Come area and ON the 4,5,9.
     
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  2. SevenOut, Oct 18, 2013

    SevenOut

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    Dealer Pay Off Errors:

    A topic title concerned pay out errors or buy in errors by one or more Craps Dealers at an active table. I personally have never have observed a miscount of chips on a buy in for forty years or dirty chip stacks being pushed to a player. NEVER. Not that I have stepped into a Casino to play every day for forty years, for twenty four hours of action, seven days a week. The chances of a buy in being miscounted, in my experience of dealing and as a player have been... NIL, none, zip and zero.

    When you buy in at a table, the new player "throws his cash and Casino card onto the Come". The end dealer does not count the cash, but makes eye contact with the new player, so the dealer knows WHO is the new buy in player. The cash is tossed like used kleenex tissue to the Boxman. The Boxman will lay out the cash for his count and for the cameras above, watching the cash going into the cash box and chips going out/off the table. The end dealer glances over to see the count and is pulling chips out of the BANK, not his stacks, unless the chips needed to finish the buy in is a fraction of a 20 stack, and the dealer has enough to maintain normal payoffs for the next roll. The Bank's chip stacks are... CLEAN STACKS with no mix of chip values that do not belong. You have two End Dealers, a Stick and the Boxman maintaining the Bank. I have never seen mixed stacks in the Bank, ever. I have, though, seen a stack in front of a dealer that was DIRTY with a chip that did not belong in that color. The error is ALWAYS discovered. ALWAYS. When the dealer cuts chips, the edges are of the same color of the denomination it represents, and in a dirty stack it is 100% obvious. The Stick will sometimes point it out to the End Dealer that his... $whatever stack... is dirty. You would have to have a team of dealers, so incompetent, inexperienced and oblivious to dealing that any player could get a stack of anything with unknown chips of other values mixed with other "color".

    The cash that is sitting in front of the Boxman remains, untouched where the count was made and "displayed". The end dealer then cuts out the chips per the table's normal routine, or as the new player requests. The End Dealer, Stick and Boxman are also making a chip count visually. (If you have dealt Craps, you can glance and make an accurate count.) The End Dealer pushes, I say pushes so no chips are removed or added by the dealer in the process, to the new buy in player. The player puts the chips into his rack. Once the chips are in the players rack, the cash is pushed into the cash box with a paddle, by the Boxman.

    The dealer made the count, the Boxman glances at the chip count, the Stick might be watching if there is not mid table action and the player accepts the count, picks the chips up and puts the chips into his chip rack for play.

    The topic spoke of making various vocal bets to the End Dealer when the cash was tossed onto the table. The End Dealer cannot accept any wagers for a Player until the Boxman begins to make the cash count, as the End Dealer only has an idea of how much cash was "tossed onto the table". It could have been the poster missed a step or two in the description of the process, but something is out of order.

    A pimply faced dealer is no better nor worse than a pimply faced player. My personal opinion is this post was tossed onto the Forum to get comments and the rest is grand standing and pomp. To take a $200 buy in and turn it into $1000! You are talking an event that even the staff at a Craps table would be in total astonishment, and they have seen table action, three shifts at 24 hours a day. From the mentioning of another Forum member whom I seem to be on the opposite side of Craps theory... the next step will be... "and I was using so and so's winning strategy".
     
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  3. SevenOut, Oct 18, 2013

    SevenOut

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    Dealer PAYOFF ERRORS:

    Unlike BUY INS, payoff errors can occur. Not often, but when they do the PLAYER recognizes it when the payoff on a win has been made. These errors ALWAYS occur on the Front Line Pass wagers. (Unless you had something you would like to share and how it happened.)

    I have been OVER PAID once when the Riverboat Casinos opened in the Kansas City, Missouri market. I even knew the Boxman, as she was in the same Harrahs Craps School as myself. Being a Boxman right at the opening of Casino gambling in Missouri says a lot of the person watching and running a 14 foot table... for Harrahs.

    I was paid an extra $5 chip on a Front Line Winner. I saw it when the End Dealer cut the chips. I quickly picked up my winnings, left a $5 chip on the Pass Line for a new game. The Boxman, Boxwoman in this case although all are Boxman as I keep it gender neutral, points at me and says "you were over paid $5, toss it out onto the table". She was correct, I was overpaid $5.

    The unwritten rule at an active a Craps Table is: If you are over OR even underpaid and "put the chips into your rack"... they are YOURS. There is no way to prove that you were over paid when the payoff is mixed with your racked chips, unless chasing a $5 chip on the camera is worth the table's time.

    If you are under paid... Player procedure is: You point at the payoff the Dealer pushed or laid in front of you and tell the Dealer... "my payoff looks SHORT". The dealer will break down the payoff and prove it is correct OR find the mistake and make it right. DO NOT TOUCH OR MAKE YOUR COUNT BY TOUCHING THE PAYOFF YOURSELF. It is the Dealer's responsibility to make it right one way or the other. You will have the End Dealer, Boxman and Stick also watching to make CERTAIN it is taken care of. This reassures the rest of the table if there is ever a payout in error, it will be taken care of before the dice move from the center. I have even seen the Boxman hold the pair of dice to prevent any more action, until there is a final determination!

    Back to my case. This Boxman, and I mentioned this many, many posts ago... pointed right at me and announced "you were overpaid $5. Toss $5 onto the table." The payoff was already in my rack, so the extra $5 was MINE. I acted neutral and she knew what I was doing, and understood the unwritten rule. She pointed at me again and wanted that $5 chip. The stand off halted the action at the table to dead silence. She stared at me... and I relented, tossed the $5 chip onto the cloth and the dice began to move to the shooter.

    I had two choices. Throw the chip back onto the table or pick up my chips and cash out. I decided I wanted to stay and play.

    After I had decided to back off the table for the evening and color up, the Boxman came over to me and wondered why I was not dealing at Harrahs. I was going to be moving out of State shortly and it would not be worth working tables for a couple months and cutting out so soon. I complimented her on the due diligence for catching the $5 overpay. She admitted she did it because she wanted to set an example at the table and knowing me... let me know she was watching the action. That is why she was being paid... to keep the table moving and honest.

    Although in the "real world" the Boxman would have mentioned the overpay to the End Dealer later and not pressed the Player to toss the $5 chip back. It is not good PR to press a Player, when it was their mistake. But... if the Boxman wants to make a point... he can stop the table cold and force you to pay up or quit. It works both ways and this time, I had to pay up.

    The Boxman was correct in correcting the mistake, but usually this is an internal matter and not one to force a Player to stay or run. If the Dealer is chronic in making mistakes and probably will be off the Craps Table shortly, handling a game that is easier to handle. Since this was the first couple weeks of Casino gambling in Missouri... I call it experience.
     
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  4. SevenOut, Oct 18, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    HARDWAY Bets MISSED:

    My last Dealer/Player situation for today!

    It is more frequent on a busy table that the Stick fails to remove a losing Hardway bet. Many players know the Hardway bet is lost and routinely throw a chip to the Stick and call "Back Up on the ####". Sometimes the Stick did not even check and the chip coming in reminds the Stick to pull off all of the Hardways on that number. So, I will wait before I get my Hardway back.

    If, you have a losing bet and it is not removed from the table and the Stick moves the dice to the shooter and the dice are thrown for a decision... the once losing bet is now LIVE.

    It is not your job to correct the Dealer(s) nor watch other people's play. If a player accepts a short payoff... it is their fault for not knowing the mathematics of what the payoff should have been. The last thing you would want to do it point it out to the player or dealer and be WRONG. So, keep out of it. Watch your chips, your wagers and your payoffs.

    These dealers run and maintain control of the table. Not you. Dishonest? Unethical? That is your decision. My decision is that I watch my chips, my payoffs and my bets on the table. It is not my job to train and correct the table crew. Keep your nose in your business and occasionally you will spot these mistakes. They are uncommon, but happen.
     
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  5. rudeboy99, Oct 20, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    Unfortunately, dealer errors are a fact of life, even the top hands are guilty from time to time. This is why the savvy player should ALWAYS know what wagers he has in action, where they are located in relation to his table location and what the pay off is. Also, triple check when coloring up as most larger mistakes I've seen happen here. As far as dealers booking a bet of a cash buy in, if they can see that you are holding sufficient amount of cash in your hand to cover your vocal wagers, they'll generally book the bet. When they can't see any cash they won't as that is a "Call Bet", and most layouts state "NO CALL BETS" and this is what's refereed to.If a 7 out occurs before the bet is set up, but after the bet is "booked", you are obligated to pay up, conversely the house has to pay up if the bet hits.
     
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  6. SevenOut, Oct 25, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    CASH PLAYS SITUATION

    This happens rarely, as it is usually a player whose bankroll has been wiped off the face of the map or chip rail. But, to make up for the shortage for the Odds Bet, the player can pull out the cash, lets say $50 on a 10X, $5 table.

    You lay the $50 CASH behind your Pass Line bet and announce CASH PLAYS. Or if it is a $5 chip and $45 Cash... Cash Plays.

    The dealer will announce to the Boxman, CASH PLAYS. If the table does not like this Cash in Play action... they will not be bashful and tell you... next time buy in for chips.

    If you lose, the dealer takes your losing chips and pushes the losing wager cash to the Boxman who drops it into the cash box.

    If you win... the dealer pays the CASH as if it was $50 in chips, leaving the cash on the table. At that time the player would take the cash off of the table and now has... winnings to play. I have never seen a player have a Cash Plays more than once in a busy game. It happens. It is legal. It can easily be handled by any dealer, although throwing a roll of $10 bills at the Stickman and having CASH PLAYS would be something to avoid... just cool it and between the last and next roll... buy in for some chips.
     
    #46
  7. rudeboy99, Oct 26, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    I don't know if it's nationwide or not, but for about the last 7 years or so, we have been forbidden from accepting ANY cash wagers, which was hard to get used to as "paper plays" was an integral part of the game for so long. If someone does try to make a cash wager, our base dealers convert the cash to chips with high priority.
     
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  8. kaysirtap, Oct 27, 2013

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    I also am not sure about whether or not this is nationwide...

    But I seem to recall that the reason behind this is revenue reporting. Since paper is not converted to cheques when it wins, it is not put into the drop box and therefore not reported.
     
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  9. SevenOut, Oct 27, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    *******

    That makes good sense to me. Also when cash is converted to chips... those round things are not real money and the House is looking forward to getting them back into the Boxman's Bank!

    Rudeboy99... SEVEN YEARS ago! You know how to make a young Craps Player feel old.
     
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  10. rudeboy99, Nov 7, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    Kaysirtrap has it nailed,(as usual), as cash plays were much harder to to track than traditional buy in & cheque play action. And hell yes! If I make you feel old, imagine my chagrin...like the old cowpoke said," This ain't my first rodeo...and I hope it ain't my last..." :coolsmile:
     
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  11. SevenOut, Nov 19, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    There was a question on the Forum of why do Casino's have Serial Numbers on their dice? For the same reason there are Serial Numbers on our becoming worthless Federal Reserve paper bills.

    Craps Dealers are VERY AWARE of the dice that are used on their Craps table(s). The Casino management IS VERY CONCERNED in keeping the most important "money machine" on a Craps Table... honest. It is that stick of five dies that start the table and the five dies that will be retired one or more times each day.

    I will throw out a question that some of the answers are scattered in various places on the Craps Forum... but have not been added to the HGCD posts... yet. As I use to be a real Dice Junky collecting dice... I have discovered more security markings and techniques that most Dealers could spot on their own table's dice. So here it goes to those of you who have some belief that a Casino would have no way to secure their tools of the trade, DICE, and give some examples of HOW. I have not taken time, yet, to make an accurate count of the ways dice are made secure of which I am familiar with various obscure ways to prevent gaffed dice from entering their Casino or Craps Table and keep the game secure, but will in the near future AFTER any input from the experienced Craps Players.

    Offer a list of ACTUAL die security, if you know of any... and also something you might think could also be used that is hard to detect while a player is shooting them or looking at them on the table.
     
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  12. kaysirtap, Nov 21, 2013

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    I don't really understand the second part of the question. But for the first part... off the top of my head:

    Dice Number (serial number)
    Color
    Pip Design
    Logo
    Clear - you can see the depth of each pip
    Letter - I think on some dice if you look through the two or four (don't remember which), there is a letter code on the back of the center pip on the opposite side of the die. This might be a feature on Paulson dice only.
    Open or closed dice - when looking at a die at an angle with the two and three visible to you, by "connecting the dots" of the two and three they will create a point. Within a stick, they will all point towards either the 1 or the 6. (I suppose it is possible that the lines of the two and three are parallel, but I have never seen this on a stick of casino dice.)
    Glowspot - I've heard of this, but never actually seen it.
     
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  13. SevenOut, Nov 21, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    ********

    The last sentence was asking for a security feature NOT ALREADY KNOWN TO EXIST.

    You are excellent. I call the "open or closed die" a left hand or right hand two or three in relationship to the other pips. I will see how your observation works as I have never thought of it the way you describe. It makes perfect sense when the Boxman can see the front of the die with no obstruction AND then the opposite side with the mirror on the Stick's side from one end to the other end of the table. After thinking about it, I think the left and right handed two or three cannot not be disputed with those pips in front of the observer. It does make sense if the Stickman or Boxman are looking from the five pip or four pip and recognize the left or right pip patterns...

    Get out a Long or Short Wave UV lamp and the spot will glow IF it was made to glow. You will see the Boxman slide an errant die in front of himself, over the bank, to check for the glow spot. Midwest Perfect Dice in Kansas City offers that option. They use ALL of the security options you list.

    It is easy for a good Stick to rotate the dies in any position with the stick and push them in front of the Boxman to look them over. A good stickman can also push the POINT combination of the pair of dies to the shooter by rotating them in front of the Boxman. If the shooter has any Hardways... the stick will push the Hardway combination on top to the shooter. I would also believe if the Stickman believes the shooter is a Dice Influencer or Controller... the Stick will push the set to save the shooter some time finding the combination used in their "control".

    A letter can be added before the pip is filled with the white and can vary from anywhere on a die.

    Thank you for being so observant and a STAR in the dice community. I cannot think of anything you missed. If I do... I will be sure to post it.

    (1) Altering the size of the dice being played at a random schedule
    (2) There are two finishes I have noted on dice:
    (a) The most common is "razor edge" and "polished"
    (b) The less common is "sanded finish" and "not razor edged"
     
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  14. $nakeEye$, Nov 21, 2013

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    kaysirtap and seven-out -

    A most enlightening and informative post and response -

    I knew there were measures in place by the casino to thwart non-authorized dice coming into play by the casinos -

    However , your statements , just touch the tip of the iceberg as to how serious / dedicated the casinos are to ensure that the dice in play are NOT compromised -

    The casinos , in my estimation, have way too much to lose , and nothing to gain -

    By allowing compromised dice to be brought into play at their establishments -

    THEY ' CUT THE POT ' virtually with each and every toss of the dice -

    Whatever the outcome is -

    The house edge / advantage - PREVAILS !

    Good Post, Gents !

    $...eE..$
     
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  15. rudeboy99, Nov 25, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    I have worked where each die in the set had a letter set in the BACK of the middle pip on the "3" and by looking into the die from the "4" side was perfectly visible. I haven't seen these type of dice for 30 years or so. I think they were Cardwell's, perhaps. Also, the set consisted of three ruby red and three yellow dice. ;-)
     
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  16. SevenOut, Nov 25, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Midwest Certified Dice of Missouri have been putting letters behind pips for a long time. I am sure they still do. One Casino's name was so long, an Indian Casino in the East, that the logo was a mere MP. The security pip would alternate with a M or a P behind the middle pip of the three spot. The five spot is also the second option for easy to find security pips.
     
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  17. rudeboy99, Jan 16, 2014

    rudeboy99

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    Ours only had the casino's logo for an external mark, and I'm not positive, but I don't remember them having a serial number. :p
     
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