The Differances In Craps Dice

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by Pressit, Dec 25, 2016.

  1. eagleeye2, Dec 27, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Pressit,

    I understand that your Original Wild Bills clear red dice are 3/4", but were the "Frontier" Dice you shot, the small Dark Red ones or the Larger Light Red ones or other?

    My findings as previously posted:

    Persist,

    3/4 Inch = 19.05 mm, essentially the same dimension.

    But there can be significant Differences in Dimentions & Weights from different manufacturers.

    Here's what I found on those Frontier Dice Post #9 on the ""Found 100 cancelled Casino Dice on eBay.""

    http://www.crapsforum.com/threads/found-100-cancelled-casino-dice-on-ebay.15657/

    Here's the results of analysis of four (two small & two large) dice taken from the 100 Dice (discussed in the previous post) at random:

    DIE #1 & #2 (small) Diameter (Dark Red) MM
    Across Face 1 ~ 6 . 19.14 & 19.13 MM
    Across Face 2 ~ 5 . 19.14 & 19.12 MM Weight 9.117 grams & 8.904 grams
    Across Face 3 ~ 4 . 19.15 & 19.12 MM

    DIE #3 & #4 (large) Diameter(Light Red) MM
    Across Face 1 ~ 6 . 20.17 & 20.20 MM
    Across Face 2 ~ 5 . 20.17 & 20.21 MM Weight 9.839 grams & 9.843 grams
    Across Face 3 ~ 4 . 20.18 & 20.21 MM

    Close Dimensional Measurments across the three Axises, verify that the Dice are SQUARE!

    Dice Balancing Caliper Evaluation:

    Dark Red (smaller) Dice ~ Judged Highly Unbalanced, upon spin testing settled with the (1) Face in the UP Position every time. Typically rocked back & forth as the Spin rate slowed & stopped.

    Light Red (larger) Dice ~ Judged to be Fairly Balanced, in that any of the three faces could appear up upon spin testing. Typically NO rocking back & forth as the Spin rate slowed & stopped. If one established a count of the Up Faces, the (1) face may appear at a slightly higher rate, but as the other faces also stopped UP & there was none of the "Rocking Back & Forth Exhibited" I considered them Fairly Balanced.

    Comparison of Dimensions & weights for Dice # 1 & 2 and # 3 & 4 were within relatively small variance, indicating good manufacturing practices.

    It's considered AMAZING that DICE manufactured some Ten + Years ago exhibited the characteristics described above.

    The most AMAZING thing is that the ""Dark Red"" Dice from 10 Years ago exhibit the same Characteristic Unbalance as Do Dark Red Dice Of Today!

    eagleeye2
     
    #21
  2. Onautopilot, Dec 27, 2016

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    I have no trouble spotting new dice put into play, nor do I have any trouble physically touching the dice to satisfy myself they are "square" to the touch within the "feel test".

    What I was referring to was the weight distribution, and actual measurements is all. You just can not know that at the table.
     
    #22
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  3. Onautopilot, Dec 27, 2016

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    Unfortunately, they will not let you do that at the craps table...DUH.
     
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  4. Onautopilot, Dec 27, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    I am not talking about total weight of the dice, I was refering to an imbalanced weight distribution in the individual dice.
     
    #24
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  5. eagleeye2, Dec 27, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Onautopilot,

    As the "Dice Balancing Caliper" was DESIGNED to Measure Unbalance in Casino Dice, YET, as your ""Past Casino Employers"" all refuse to Use a DICE BALANCING CALIPER at the Tables, NO ONE will know if the Actual DICE that the Casino's put in play, at any Casino; are Balanced or NOT! Exactly what the Casino's WANT, DUH!

    Exactly what are you implying with your comment: ""I am not talking about total weight of the dice, I was refering to an imbalanced weight distribution in the individual dice.""???

    easgleeye2
     
    #25
  6. Onautopilot, Dec 27, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    He said he could tell the difference in weight, I was just commenting that maybe so, but you could not tell if there was an imbalance in weight just by picking the dice up is all..

    I am not a bias dice expert, but I do have a fair understanding of physics. I also have played a lot of street craps, and can spot bias dice when it is so evident, as to be apparent to an astute observer....flats, heavily weighted, etc., but when at a live casino craps table, unless the dice are so bias that one could pick up on it through a short observation, or physical contact.....which I seriously doubt, then to me, it's always just a guess in my opinion.

    Nothing wrong with suspecting a bias, and acting on that....play it, or get out of Dodge.
     
    #26
  7. eagleeye2, Dec 27, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Onautopilot,

    One can VERIFY FAIR or BIASED DICE in an actual CASINO ENVIRONMENT Via the following:

    I am starting a New Thread titled "ELEMENTARY METHOD TO ESTABLISH FAIR or BIASED DICE", to prevent B.S. like that TDV & others post here on the subject of ""Biased Dice use in Casino's""!
    Yes, I have published this several times before, but it simply gets buried.

    For those that want to LEARN, rather than accept current or past Casino Employee's B.S., as posted by the Casino Brain Trust, on this thread, read on!

    Typical LIE from 7uwin, TDV, etc. ""You claim to be able to detect Dice bias by logging rolls and determining that 7 is showing more than 1 in 6 rolls.

    I have NEVER posted, nor insinuated the above, as the LIAR 7uwin Posts!
    Here's What I have Stated:

    First: Be EXTREMELY CAREFULL of Very DARK RED DICE, as they have the highest likelyhood of being BIASED in favor of the Casino.

    Second: For starters, TWO dice make up the # shot, when playing CRAPS, which 7uwin attempts to ignore.
    One must ask, "Why Complicate analysis by dealing with the SUM of combinations of #'s, on TWO DICE, that add to 7, like 7uwin; LIES about me doing!

    Here's the mathematical way to rapidly detect Biased Dice in Play, in an actual Casino!
    1) Reduce things to the simplest mode.

    You can accomplish this by ignoring the SUM of # Combinations adding to 7's & focusing on the individual #'s. As 6~1 Bias has been the most prevalent Bias to date (a shift to 4~3 Bias appears to protect the Casino more) I will focus on it, but any other BIAS uses the same LOGIC presented below!

    Now, any # appears on a FAIR Die EXACTLY 1 in 6 throws, two dice in PLAY, any # appears on a set of FAIR Dice 1 in 3 throws & that is the KEY!

    You simply observe (No need to log on paper) the total # of 1's & 6's (on both dice) Vs # of throws. I mentally note this as follows ~ # Low # & # High # Vs # of rolls by a player. Noting that each player chooses from 5 DICE, all of which may not be Biased, (I typically feel that a 3 Biased Vs 2 Fair dice are employed), & therefore with every NEW Shooter, you must start any count over, due to dice change.

    For a single shooter & the same Dice, This could hypothetically proceed as follows:
    NOTE: Layout is ~ # 1'S ~ # 6'S ~ # Throws

    1, 0, 1
    1, 0, 2
    3, 0, 3
    3, 1, 4
    4, 1, 5
    4, 1, 6
    4, 1, 7
    5, 1, 8
    5, 1, 9

    Now, what would we have here?

    Well, we observed 5 1's in 9 throws of the Dice, when FAIR dice would have produced around 3 1's. The 5 1's observed, should have taken about 5 * 3 or 15 rolls of the dice, not 9.

    Prognosis, Highly Likely that 1~6 Biased Dice are in Play, with the above!

    Should your Total Count of any single # approach the Magic # of 3 Times the # of rolls, the Dice in Play are likely Fair for that #.

    The exact same technique can be used for; 3~4 & 2~5 Biased dice.

    One key to firmly establishing Dice Conditions, is the length of the roll. When you see numerous short rolls, you have little confidence in the Count, (although numerous short rolls are a sign of a COLD Table, or worse) as the Stick Man passes out 5 dice to each new shooter & you do not know the composition of those 5 Dice, as to Biased or Balanced.

    When you see 8 or more rolls, (with the same Dice), the Count begins to become meaningful. Add several decent rolls & your decision should be easy.

    When generating your Counts, it's best to make a note of the Dice Combination that produced the 7-Out for each shooter. Should you see say three out of four 7-Outs as 3-4, it's advisable to begin a Count of 3's & 4's Vs # of Rolls.

    Recall that it's Your $$$ against the Casino, ignore much of the B.S. posted on this thread, i.e. you cannot tell if a ""Casino Has Biased Dice In Play"", as with a bit of your Time & Counts, you Can & will Save Your own $$$ by avoiding Playing into BIASED Craps Dice!

    eagleeye2
     
    #27
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016