The Bottom Line

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by gargoil, May 3, 2015.

  1. gargoil, May 3, 2015

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    Some on this forum know me. Others know of me. Most know of my successes and failures at the tables. I am not one to toot my own horn and this is not what this thread is about. I just want to give my honest opinion and feedback in hopes it will help new comers to the game and maybe some existing veterans.

    1- Dice Control. I don't believe in dice control. There is no such thing. Period. Anybody tells you they can control the dice and can teach you is a liar. Enough said.

    2- Dice Influence. I do believe with a good amount of practice a few number of people can sometimes influence the dice. They can do that by a certain set they use, their throw, etc... This doesn't work every time and all the time. The human body with enough training can develop muscle memory. If you look at a baseball pitcher, sometimes they can be so perfect they pitch a perfect game or a shut out. It's all about practice but NOT EVERYONE can do this. Each person needs to look in the mirror and be honest to themselves.

    3- On Axis Toss. Yes this can be achieved per my comments in #2. Some on this forum whom has seen me play can tell you I have a good on Axis shot.

    4- Off Axis Toss. Yes this can be achieved per my comments in #2. On certain tables in certain casinos this is ALL I use with good success.

    5- DI classes. This is a touchy subject. I have taken several of these and my opinion is that the reason most students fail and go on a guilt and finger pointing spree is because they don't give themselves time to practice and find out how good they can get. Many of times I have seen them take a class for the first time and then want to be the first to try it out in real live sessions with real money. The classes are designed to teach you proper general technique on dice influencing, general betting strategies and gives others a chance to look at your toss and give opinions. It is up to the person who took the class to practice and develop. Some may never get there, others may get half way there. Not everyone on this forum is a star athletic player however many of us played sports growing up and learned the basic points of the game. The same apply.

    6- Biased Dice. Some establishments purchase cheaply made dice in order to save money. In some cases you will get some bias in the dice. Sometimes it's no where enough to affect anything you are trying to establish. Other times it could cause a huge bias. I don't think the major casinos in Vegas purposely warp their dice in order to cheat the customers for many reasons. The fine alone could be huge and the house always wins. Anything they lose on the craps tables they make it back from the suckers on the slot machines. HOWEVER some Indian establishments out in the middle of no-where may do that simply because there is no one to answer to. My advice on the matter simply is to walk away if you think there is something fishy.

    7- Bickering and Arguing. Two camps arguing and bickering and calling each other names because they don't agree on something DOES NOT help this forum or any forum. It doesn't help a newbie searching for answers on how to play the game and it WILL not help convince someone from one camp to join the other. Enough with the name calling and arguments. I don't have to name people. You know who you are. Each have stated your point and where you stand. It's up to the readers to decide based on what has been said. If I was the admin, I would put ALL of you in time out. Not for trying to state your points but for going about it the wrong way.

    8- Name smearing. I am tired of some on this forum always dragging someone's name or business in the dirt. To me if you do that you are a coward hiding behind the keyboard. Who cares if HEAVY is teaching a class about DI. Who cares if Harley is doing a seminar on Dice Bias. To me it gets to be personal when you start affecting ones business and income. I am disappointed the admin on this forum has allowed this particular thing to go as long as it has. Frank S. has a new book out and people start calling him a liar and a fraud. MP puts out a new betting strategy and folks call him a fiction writer. Harley puts a new video on dice bias and people call him all kinds of names. This is a free country the last time I checked and freedom of speech is something many gave their own lives for. If you don't like what was posted or said then state so in a good way and move on.

    THE BOTTOM LINE: We are here to make money and take money from the casinos. Not to bicker argue and fight over petty things. The sad part is that some on this forum will read this and take certain things out of context and attack me for whatever reason. If that's the case I don't care. I have said my peace. My hope is that a newbie to the forum will take this and make his / her own personal choice.

    Good luck at the tables
     
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  2. Dave G Ct, May 3, 2015

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

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    Welcome
    There are a few here that have nothing positive to say to DI. Don' t worry about these lightweights. Jealous wanabes lol
     
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  3. TDVegas, May 3, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    While I don't disagree with anything you wrote, I will draw the line on this idea that anyone should be given free reign to make astronomical claims without rebuttal, especially if they are selling it. When I hear "440 wins, 4 losses----buy it here".......sorry, I'm not going to sit by and live and let live. When I hear claims that the dice stay on axis and the video tells a different story and your business is based on an on-axis claim....sorry, I'm not going to sit by. I think DI is a farce and I've outlined my reasons why. If there are people that want to rebut my claims with worthwhile discussion beyond "I can and you can't" or "just believe me"....let's talk.

    Standing offer to Dave. 72 rolls. I want to see a steady 9-14 rolls before 7 out or roll ten 4's and 10's in 72 rolls. Then we'll do it again. Then again. Then we can start the discussion on DI.

    Posters claiming DI are likely seeing a good day at the tables and interpreting it as DI. When it's a bad day, the dice didn't stay on axis or some other excuse. It's all random in my view. When someone is calling numbers on demand and rolling them....DI. I'm listening.

    My disbelief of DI stems ENTIRELY from a point of view of betting progression and nothing more. I cannot argue anything else on DI claims because it simply falls into a "I can and you have to believe me" point of view.
     
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  4. Onautopilot, May 3, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    It is a fantastic, beautiful, and mysterious Universe. A Universe that contains this fantastic, beautiful, and mysterious planet Earth. A planet that contains approximately 8 billion beautiful, and mysterious human beings....all with a different reality! A few of those 8 billion human beings come together on this forum, and exchange thoughts, opinions, and beliefs. There will certainly be some conflict, but I would like all of you to just remember....my reality is better than your reality! :)
     
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  5. TDVegas, May 3, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Gamblers can be a funny bunch. Great memories and not so great memories at times. Those wins are discussed---"throwing hard 8's all over the place"---"my 5th point in a row"----"the crowd was cheering"----"I colored up for purples"......

    They tend to forget the losses. They tend to forget that searching for that last $100 in the wallet is futile---because it was just lost in the prior 5 minutes. Remember the good times is the gambler credo. It's a wacky game.
     
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  6. betwthelines, May 3, 2015

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    I cant argue with most of your points except for the ones regarding the admin "doing something"...the admin here does an outstanding job in my opinion, which is to say for the most part he does nothing, pretty much letting anyone say what they want...in the extremely rare case where someone does cross or step on the line with, for example, racist comments, he will come in with a warning...from my limited experience that is all that has been needed...

    ...what I am saying here is that we are all adults...most of us hate the name calling and personal attacks, sure we do, but we also recognize them for what they are and we are all allowed to make up our own mind...these occasional calls for admin censorship or banning someone are tiresome to me...if you don't like something or someone being on here, by all means say so. or leave voluntarily . or get over it...tom "home runs are often boring" p
     
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  7. tabletop123, May 3, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    TDVegas may be on to something here!! I've been at the craft for the better part of 6 years. Dice influencing MAY JUST BE a crock of shit. I REALLY don't know!! I know that I seem to do well enough to stay Profitable. However, I CANNOT keep my dice "On Axis" with any regularity. I CANNOT call numbers on Demand. I CANNOT win every time I step up to the Table. I CANNOT snipe Numbers. I DO know that my Hand Length is beyond 1:6. This is NOT speculation because I ALWAYS chart my roll Length. Now, the reason I chart Roll Length is to remain Cognizant of the 1:6 so that I can regress or take my Bets down BEFORE roll number 6. I will say this: If there are DI's that can skew Probabilities..... It's NOT by Much. Now, during my recent Tunica Outing, My SRR was a little North of 8. Yes, I experienced some PSO's, but I played smart & had Little to nothing on the layout after roll number five. The problem with most Di's is that they disregard the math of the game, thinking they are gonna CONSISTENTLY toss 10-14 roll hands. It just aint Gonna happen. In my honest opinion I think that hitting the same Spot on the table yields better than average results. However, I really don't know if that's considered Dice influencing. I think it's more of "Toss Accuracy". You see, most DI's think that "Setting" the dice brings more or less of a Number/s. I disagree. I think that hitting the same spot on the table will EVENTUALLY bring back a number/s If the hand extends long enough. However, using the 2v to "Snipe' out the 10 & 4, or the 3V to "Snipe" out the 6/8 is Pure Bullshit. You normally hit a Number/s because you've tossed to the same spot on the table long enough for the number/s to appear. as TDVegas says: Confirmation Bias. You set the 2v.... First Toss.... A 10, second toss..... A 4. Now, the subliminal says: My 2v Set is REALLY working. WRONG!!! It's just coincidence that it worked THAT particular time. what about all the times that the 2V produced nothing but SHIT numbers & PSO's? Forget the Dice Influencing, & just remain consistent about where You land your Dice. During this recent Outing, I'd bet a NAKED passline Bet, toss to a certain spot, & record the Results. three's ALWAYS a Favorable spot on each & every table that you play on. It's your Job to find that Spot/s that are "Box Number" Friendly. Now, Most schools say to land the dice 4-6 inches from the back Wall. Well, guess What? I found a Spot on a Crapless table that provided me with a 35 Minute hand. The Friggin Landing Spot was at the "Crease"(where the Felt & the Back wall meets). Dice influencing? Not for me!!!!! Toss Influencing, & Hitting the same Spot........ A RESOUNDING..... Yes!!!!!
     
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  8. Onautopilot, May 3, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    Right on the money!
     
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  9. The Comeback Kid, May 3, 2015

    The Comeback Kid

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    Thanks for your opinion(s) Gargoil, but please don't advocate sanitizing our forum, for underneath the name calling reveals something that enriches us all - diversity of thought.

    Do you feel what I feel? Do you see what I see? Did you hear what I hear? Have you experienced what I've experienced?

    Moment by moment each of us creates a personal micro reality that bumps up against others doing the same, meshing into a soup of collective reality that can get quite interesting at times. The process of challenging a firmly held belief is not always a pretty one, but eventually over time a shift does occur. One gets tired of the fight. Maybe they realize there is nothing to fear. Feeling good becomes more important than being right. And through it all there is growth, expansion, even enlightenment. When the sweet surrender comes; the letting go occurs, and what you have is something sublimely transformational.

    my spiritual teachers.jpg
     
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  10. Liman

    Liman Member

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    Its kind of someone to suggest to this boards administration how this board should handle things.
    feh.
     
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  11. DeMango, May 4, 2015

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Good Point LIMan. IMHO Jacob does a fine job.


    I'm not gonna cross post as Gargoil has. My answers to him are on GamblingForums.com
     
    #11
  12. TDVegas, May 4, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I would agree. The site is run very well. Axis craps is lucky to have 3 people posting and they all agree with HeavyD
     
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  13. tabletop123, May 4, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Yes, TdVegas....... Heavy & His Girlfriend(Irishshitter) run a pretty tight Ship over there!!! Never any problems with Heavy(Besides the Normal.... Single file line Please, & Pick up your toys off of the floor, children), but "Old Shitter"........ A horse of a TOTALLY different color!!!
     
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  14. Liman

    Liman Member

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    everyone should have the right to question the validity of claims made that sound far fetched and near impossible.
    I personally don't know what goes on on other boards, but feel the administration does a fine job here.

    It seems the people who know it all, or claim to know it all, act as if experience gathered by people here, (myself included) counts for nothing.

    and way too much mention of other boards.
    who gives a rats ass how other people run their boards.
    when I become a member over there, I will comment on that board.
     
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  15. TDVegas, May 4, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Gotta love how they come up with a new language...
    "Randies".....for "random" shooters as opposed to influence shooters. DI's. LOL
    Then it takes on a life of its own and becomes a common phrase. Only problem, it's all meaningless to the game. Heavy's site is lucky to get 3 or 4 posts per day. 2 are from Heavy, 1 is scratching his back and the other wants to buy dice for $43.
     
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  16. gargoil, May 4, 2015

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    Appreciate the honest feedback. I just gave an opinion as a member on this forum. There is a reason why I generally don't post here and you can see why... To answer some real quick
    TDV yea anyone selling you a system that can win 440 and lose 4 is trying to sell you the golden gate bridge. It doesn't exist.
    TT123 we know each other and I can understand your stance on Irish and others. I know the story there
    Liman, I am a member here and as a member I can question and complain anything I want to the admin. That is my right the last time I checked. I agree everyone has the right to question the validity of claim but you do it as an adult and move on. Some people here have made it their own crusades to take down others. It's a mute point because no one is going anywhere. So where does that leave us? How is that going to help me or anyone else be better at the game?
    ComeBackKid if you think calling someone names and posting a picture of their underage teenage daughter for everyone to see a diversity of thought then more power to you. I think it's low.
    Demango thanks for you feedback on the other forum.

    Again I am not saying one camp is right and the other wrong. Contradiction is a great way to learn more and more. However it's getting old filtering out the crap in order to get a good post about a strategy or a good play. As a quick example Tabletop in other posts has given us great advice from his own experiences. I missed half of them because half way thru I got tired of all the junk in the middle. Life is Way too short for that. Calling someone else names and hating on them everyday is not going to make them go away.
     
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  17. tabletop123, May 4, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Gargoil, you must understand that there are a Slew of Veterans on this forum. Sure, there's a few Vets on Heavy's forum, but NOT to the same extent as on this forum. Speaking in Generalities...... If a Topic is considered "Suspect", or Bullshit on this Forum, It will be SWIFTLY attacked. It is what it is! Most people on this Forum are NOT interested in Dice Influencing. They could care less about how "Pretty" your toss looks or How many 10"s & 4's You tossed. Heavy's forum has a lot of Members looking for that "Magic Bullet", when there is None. Personally, I wouldn't pay one red Cent for a DI'ng Seminar or class. It's a TOTAL waste of time & Money. Certainly, a Individual could learn just by surfing the Internet, TOTALLY FREE!! Of Course, my opinion is not a Direct attack against anyone charging for classes.... Just MY opinion. Now, if these Seminars, classes were to ONLY teach people How to toss to keep the Dice together, & for Targeting accuracy it wouldn't be a bad Thing. Problem is that MOST Beginners take the classes with the Expectation of Beating the casinos. Well, I think we BOTH know how THAT goes. There will always be those that defend Dice influencing to their very last breath. As for myself..... I KNOW that it's all Smoke & Mirrors!!!! In other words... Yes, with practice you CAN Develop a Consistent Toss, & Targeting Spot accuracy. Yes, you CAN learn to have both dice performing identical movements. However, those things DO NOT Guarantee favorable results with any regularity. What you normally have is a Slew of beautiful Looking tosses that produce no better results than the guy/gal that is tossing the Dice out of their ass!!! I've said it all along: To truly involve yourself with Dice influencing, you REALLY have to love seeing the dice move as a Unit. The "Get rich" Visions are just another Fallacy. I've been tossing the Dice "Beautifully" for the last 18 months. Have experienced some Monumental Profits! However, I realize that EVERY time that I Belly up to a Table with my "Well Rehearsed', Perfectly spinning Toss..... I'm just another random roller with a "Pretty' looking toss, hoping to get "Lucky', just like Dip shit Bob, that's slinging the dice & holding his "Nuts", & praying for his Number/s to hit!!!
     
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  18. Liman

    Liman Member

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    from what Ive read on this board, most of the name calling was initiated by people who are either selling something, or DI people who think everyone else at a table has no right to be there.
    Seems many, (not all) DI people who visit other forums, and this one, have blinders on, or worse, choose to believe that only their way is the right way for everyone.



    and yes, everyone's opinion posted in a constructive manner making their point, is what makes a board worth something.
     
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  19. Onautopilot, May 4, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    Every so often a thread like this develops, everyone says their piece, then like a ripple in the Space Time Continuum, everything eventually settles back into the usual routine. Not much change, and the ripple evaporates quite rapidly......as it should!
     
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  20. gargoil, May 4, 2015

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    Again I would like to point out that I didn't try to sell anybody anything, I didn't say go take a class from anyone AND I didn't advocate any particular DI instructor. I just stated my opinion and my personal experience. TableTop I agree 100% with your post. People take those classes thinking they are going to swipe money away from the tables. They have no idea.
    Liman thanks for your last post. You said exactly how I feel.
     
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