Trouble with the darkside is that it's so dark. Ya, maybe you get a few wins when everyone else is losing, but it's more fun and more upside potential on the right side. When's the last time you saw a darksider enjoying a craps game? Coin flip or not.

"Average shooter holds the dice for 8.5 rolls" . . . . . . mmmmmm - I kind of doubt that. At least not what I've seen. I think back when Frank wrote the book - he was after several things - preserving his bankroll, getting comps, and hoping to get on a longer roll. The 5 count does preserve your bankroll. There are quite a few shooters that 7 out before they get to 5. That is one of the nice things about the 5 count - you watch as the table takes everyone else's money. As for getting comps, as has been said, back in Frank's day, table time helped with your comps. Nowadays, it's more on how much you bet and how often. The 5 count will get you past the first 5 rolls, but there is no guarantee, the shooter is just as likely to 7 out right after the 5th roll and you have your money on the table. For the conservative gambler (like me), it helps. I have to drive anywhere from 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours to get to a casino. If I'm driving that long - I am usually there for the day. Playing the 5 count helps me stay at the table longer. For those who are impatient, this just won't work. They will look at the first 5 rolls and say - "look at the money I would have won".

I just count on my fingers. Start with a closed fist and extend a different finger after each roll you're going to count. You're ready to lock and load when all fingers are extended. And think of the potential for an After Glow Coin Influencing Session, and a whole new set of terminology and equipment and literature and...

That is the mathematical expectation. And if you run a simulation over thousands of hands, it pretty much works out to almost exactly that number. The long roll outliers make up for all those PSO's..

I believe the 8.5 includes the come out roll which make it more understandable for the unskilled random rollers.

The five count is just a way to put action on the table from time to time and get back the dice with lower investment on a table turn. I do something similar. After point I wait 1 roll before betting on any shooter I don't know or don't trust. I bet a low amount and I powerpress it on a win to get my investment back quick and lock profits asap. It doesn't always work, but saving 5-6 PSO in a night can make the diffrence between winning and losing a session.