THE 5 COUNT

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by Speedracer7, Jan 15, 2017.

  1. Speedracer7, Jan 15, 2017

    Speedracer7

    Speedracer7 Member

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    Still learning this game, and came across the 5-count method. I understand that any long roll (15-25 rolls) must start with rolls within the 5 count. But if the average shooter holds the dice for 8.5 rolls before a seven-out, doesn't the 5-count approach limit the chances of hitting your bets before a seven-out? Am I missing something?
     
    #1
  2. twodicebilly, Jan 15, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Speedracer

    The five count was not designed to make money, it was designed
    to allow you to be at the table for a longer period of time which
    may help catch more good rolls.

    I think it suggested that using the count cuts down the money
    you place on the table by 57%. I never calculated that, but
    that was they said.

    When I first heard of the GTC guys and Franks books I used
    the dewy donts for about 2 years.....I would place a $5
    come and don't come on throw 4 and then again on throw
    5. If throw 6 was a box number I would place single odds
    on those numbers and no odds on the don't come bet. If
    I hit one I would not replay the don't come bet because I
    was already past 5 rolls and then play the hand out
    increasing your bets as the hand went on.

    Over-all I stayed about even for the time I played this
    system. I still make sure I cut down my bets on others
    well below what I bet on myself.

    twodicebilly
     
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  3. AzDice, Jan 15, 2017

    AzDice

    AzDice Member

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    In my opinion it was a way of staying at the table longer and increasing your comps. That doesn't work anymore because your comps are based on buy in, bet size and amount of bets in a determined amount of time.
    Also to avoid the quick seven out.
    As mentioned in the book it's a boring way to play. We're there to gamble
     
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  4. FredP

    FredP Member

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    The 5-count is intended to:
    1. Reduce the amount of money bet.
    2. Avoid PSOs
    3. Increase the probability of catching a hot roll.
    4. Increase comps.

    Yes, you will miss winning some early bets but overall it might work.
     
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  5. KokomoJoe4, Jan 15, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Was invented by a writer and put forward as a way to: (1) stay out of action at the beginning of a hand so as to avoid a fast loss of chips while simultaneously (2) increasing your time at the table for the purpose of acquiring additional comps.

    It has no effect on your capability to win or lose at the game, since there is no way of knowing in advance what results will be had during those five or so tosses.

    As the ability to sell shooting skills through the telling of tales came to be more accepted and accomplished in the craps community, the five count became less important than the ability to shoot box numbers and avoid the seven.
     
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  6. lone irish digit, Jan 15, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    I think Frank's view of the 5 count was to avoid betting on random tossers to minimize your loses and maximize table time and evolved into a way to qualify shooters. Mathematically has no merit and if you want comps play slots or VP.
     
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  7. Liman

    Liman Member

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    I wonder how much money was lost with the 5 count system when every shooter who made the 5th number 7d out on the 6th roll.
     
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  8. twodicebilly, Jan 15, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Lone

    What it does for sure is to keep you from losing
    money on rolls less than 6.....and that cant be a
    bad thing.

    I don't think the five count is bad for a person
    with a decent shot... it offers a consistent way
    to bet on others....

    The problem with Franks idea is that they tell you
    that you have to bet 4-5 times as much on yourself.
    Most of the GTC guys don't really have an advantage
    so in effect the random guy has just as much chance
    of a good roll.
    I don't bet much on myself unless my shot looks good
    and I am very careful on others.

    My money looks better in my pocket than theirs.

    twodicebilly
     
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  9. lone irish digit, Jan 15, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    Gordo,

    I don't think I ever used the 5 count since it takes some math skills. However, I like some action and worse case is when I get in a hole and crap numbers are prevalent I still place the point as a minimum for a new shooter. But usually the table clears out when I get to a table and I play alone with Barney tracking my tosses on the bonetracker APP.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  10. twodicebilly, Jan 15, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Lone

    I really struggle with other shooters if I don't have some
    type of a system to use. What pisses me off to no end
    if when I am not paying attention and buy in just when the
    dice pass me...Then by the time I get them I am $100
    in the hole....I also know it can take me 3-4 hands
    before I get the set I want to use so I can be further
    in the hole...I will find the correct set and normally
    come out ok... but I would be better off not betting
    on others right away. Saturday I had 4 hands 8/6/8
    and I was ok on my hands but even betting lightly
    I was about $175 down before I got the dice the 4th
    time. I made the adjustment I saw from the first
    3 hands and had a heck of a roll.... but if I would
    not have wasted that damn $175 first....well you
    get the drift.

    twodicebilly

    t
     
    #10

  11. 8DWU8

    8DWU8 Member

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    I always use the 5 count on all shooters. I like to ease my way into a hand. Point seven out with all of your bets up is frustrating. Even though it still can happen after the 5 count I try to minimize that as much as possible.
     
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  12. TonyDvegasrules, Mar 30, 2017

    TonyDvegasrules

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    I have been using the five count for many years. Yes you can at times miss out on some early throws, however I can tell you that usually 3 shooters out of 10 after establishing a point they 7 out after one or two throws so you lose you pass line bet but more importantly you also loss your odds bet. It really up to each player how they want to attack the game
     
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  13. AzDice, Mar 30, 2017

    AzDice

    AzDice Member

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    I played last Saturday night in Laughlin. Almost gave back my win from Friday night.
    Table was choppy. Maybe the five count would have worked but it would have been too much of a grind for me. I'm not patient.
    There was on girl opposite end of table looked like she was only playing the pass line. I was trying to read the table layouts from where the bets are placed for each player but I couldn't see if she had any place bets. I know she had a pass line bet, but after that I didn't track her bets so I was wondering if she was martingale her pass line. Seemed like her chip rack never moved much in either direction of the plus or minus side. Table too crowded to get to other side and from where I was, I didn't want to keep looking at her bet trying to figure it out. She didn't have any white or green chips. Only red chips.
    Any other guesses of what her strategy was. What ever it was she was there when I left. So maybe she did better than I did.
     
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  14. siik2nr, Mar 31, 2017

    siik2nr

    siik2nr Member

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    The 5 count works... If your goal is to minimize bankroll volatility until it's your turn to toss the dice or any other shooter you are willing to open bets with.

    It has ZERO affect on comps. Comps are based on your locked bets and not odds. Yes you stay at the table longer but averaged out on table minimum bets using the 5 count, if it's comps your after, then it would be better to skid the 5 count and proceed betting.

    Yes it's hard to be disciplined enough to use this method 100% of the time. However, it can be very effective on Choppy tables vice betting the dark side.
     
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  15. HornHiYo, Mar 31, 2017

    HornHiYo

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    One way to play that would extend play time as well as the five count and allow a player to bet on continuous hands while avoiding many bad hands is to play twenty minutes then take a forty minute break from standing at the table.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
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  16. Onautopilot, Mar 31, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    The 5 count was devised to serve a purpose, in fact all betting schemes are devised to serve a purpose. There is usually nothing wrong with the reasoning......there is usually nothing very right about it either/

    Push the balloon in on one side, and it just pushes out an equal amount on the other side.
     
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  17. badddoin, Mar 31, 2017

    badddoin

    badddoin Member

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    I sometimes use the indefinite count. Here's how it works, and it's exactly the same as the 5 count, the 3 count, the 10 count, etc. I just don't walk in the door of the casino for an indefinite period of time. I use this method from time-to-time to preserve bankroll. It works flawlessly 100% of the time. In fact, it's the only 100% effective gambling method I've run across.
     
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  18. Twelve4s, Apr 1, 2017

    Twelve4s

    Twelve4s Member

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    This is probably the best advice Eagleeye will ever get on this forum. Can you copy and paste this 873 times?
     
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  19. KokomoJoe4, Apr 1, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Badddoin,

    I recall that you are a player who normally plays 2 or 3 wrong ways at a time. Don't remember if you Lay or go through one of the Don'ts - maybe both ways?

    At any rate, I know from my own play the likelihood of winning sessions playing conservatively from the other direction, it can and often does approach an equal number of winning and losing sessions.

    From the looks of your post above, it appears that you also have your ups and downs. With your style of play, are you able to have at least slightly more winners than losers? I do seem to remember that you did much better than me the time we met up at Palazzo, but hey, that's just one session.

    I don't play the Don'ts much at all, but as bad as the come out roll appears to be when on the DP or DC, I always manage to have a fair number of losers even when sitting as favorite behind a number. Such is life, I guess.
     
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  20. eagleeye2, Apr 18, 2017

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Twelve4s,

    Nothing changes, some here want to confuse, others want to help, viewers must just separate the B.S. from the facts!

    eagleeye2
     
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