Surviving on a $200 to $300 Bankroll

Discussion in 'Bankroll Management' started by SevenOut, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. 514natural, Feb 27, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    Im not disagreeing with your logic,
    What I think personally, in my case, I've had both big and small bankrolls headed into a craps table, and in both situations if it seems to be a bad night I LEAVE.
    if I hit a point then two numbers then seven out,again point two numbers seven out, I LEAVE.
    Big bankroll or small bankroll I leave,because if I dont have luck on my side to start then I dont believe its gonna change , at least not for that day or session. I'll be back on a day I feel a positive aura

    Once again you're right if u "Dont mind" losing all your bankroll. I much rather leave with a piece of what came in with than nothing.
    But this is solely my opinion on the matter, dont take offense to what im saying.
    im personally willing to take risk to make money playing craps but im not interested in losing.so if its a losing kind of night Im out.ill by myself a drink a something nice to eat with what i did not lose at the table in order NOT to feel like a total loser
    I like to think I'll live to fight another day if worse came to worse

    Best of luck to all
    Natural
     
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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  2. basicstrategy777, Feb 27, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    Hey....no offense taken.

    You have the math and you have the luck.

    I've mentioned before.....one of the greatest lessons you can learn in life is....to know when to quit.

    777
     
    #62
  3. SevenOut, Feb 27, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    I like to think I'll live to fight another day if worse came to worse
    Best of luck to all
    514Natural
    *********
    You are on the right track! Consider what others might say, but Common Sense is best advised when hearing others commenting about your Game Plan against... whatever they have justified as being reasonable.

    777 repeats the secret of playing Craps... knowing when to QUIT. Ahead or losing... this is the number ONE rule to becoming a Craps Player.

    Bankrolls are a function of what is needed for anyone's game plan, or what I refer as a Tight System of Play. A $3000 bankroll means nothing to a Craps Table. If a $300 bankroll player and the $3000 bankroll player are playing the SAME SYSTEM and SAME TABLE ACTION, the Wins or Losses will just be a multiple of those chips put at risk on the table. Your $100 win is their $1000 win... 1 to 10. Nothing magic about that. I think some of these proponents believing a large Bankroll gives you an advantage... an advantage compared to WHAT?

    This is Elementary School mathematics.

    You do not need to be smart to play Craps. You are not even required to know how to play Craps. You may have borrowed the bankroll to play the $3000. You do not have to report your losses nor your winnings to the IRS. Your big wins might be 100%.. hot air and does not have to be fact at all. Just if you loose your bankroll... this player is out $3000 and my $200/$300 bankroll is my loss.

    The $3000 bankroll will have more flexibility in doubling, tripling or upon each win pressing bets up during a session. But... bankroll and winning anything is NOT guaranteed. Take my "hit and run" game like you seem to play. If I am losing... I can pick up what bankroll is remaining and return later. The most you will be out is your... bankroll.
     
    #63
  4. SevenOut, Mar 2, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    I had posted this interesting article from the Wall Street Journal, October 12/13, 2013 page C3 somewhere on a Thread and could not find it. Written by Mark Maremont and Alexandra Berzon. I found this article with my dealer procedure manuals and no wonder I never saw it again! I had to scan this in two halves, so you might want to print it out and then try to make some sense of the subject matter.

    I personally doubt if either writer has ever played Craps or would understand it any better than the newest member on this Forum... who could be their INSTRUCTOR!

    Maybe it was deleted by an administrator. I do think this is very good information to comprehend and "digest".
     

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  5. SevenOut, Mar 2, 2014

    SevenOut

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    This article was most likely written by one to two British reporters. They had a group of 4,222 gamblers in the study who played Blackjack, Roulette and Slot Machines...and other games. i.e. Craps.

    ******************
    With a large bankroll, skill and strategy... you can win at....
    POKER.

    Ratio of gamblers who LOST more than $5,000 to those who WON more than $5,000 at all Casino Games....
    31 Losers to 1 Winner
    Gamblers who ended up in the Black (even money or winners) over two years in this study.....
    11%
    Big losers (119), which were 2.8% of the 4,222 Casino players provided half of the Casino's winnings and 10.7% provided 80% of Casino winnings.
    BIG Bankroll versus SMALL Bankroll

    U. S. Casinos get 90% of their revenue from 10% of their players.
    *******************
    Realistically the gamblers are not broken out into Poker, Slot, Blackjack, Craps or anything else. That would be very interesting if the Bwin.Party Digital Entertainment PLC probably has and it could be available if anyone tried to track it down.

    Craps Players are probably LESS than 5% of the players surveyed. Baccarat... 1%. But... those posters explaining why a large Bankroll is necessary to... WIN, are playing into these statistics as long term losers.

    Lets say a player earns $40 an hour to have a bankroll of $1000, this is 25 hours plus 12 hours or so to cover taxes. No retirement 401K deductions, no savings. You must put in 37 hours of work and to piss it away in several hours at a Craps Table?

    Lets say a player earns $25 an hour to have a bankroll of $1000, this is 40 hours plus 9 hours for taxes... Are you getting the idea. Anyone with a $3000 bankroll to play the dice... must throw $100 tips for a $2 drink while playing Craps!

    (As you might have already suspected. I am just making these numbers up and have not penciled them... but I am trying to get the IDEA across as to the Bankroll and Hourly Wages... comparsion.)

    I have seen the Gang Bangers at the Chicago Riverboats tossing $100 bills like kleenexes onto the cloth... $100 lose, another $100 lose... they seem to go for the Field, way too often. They must be making money, literally on a press, or sure have the job we all would be interested in applying for, at least. They sure do not take a Class or know how to Play Craps. They just play... crappie.

    Do not fall for the Big Bankroll equals Big Winners. It is all pure and simple Elementary School mathematics. As I have said before, and before... $1000 Bankroll = 5X $200 Bankrolls. Win $100 = Win $20. $20/$100 equals 5X.

    The $200/$300 game and Hit and Run System (or some of the other options discussed for $200/$300 bankrolls) IS the game for those who really want to PLAY CRAPS, but have better things to do with the other $700 or $800 difference in losses at a bad game.

    I AM NOT WORKING FOR THE CASINO. I AM NOT PAYING THEIR OVERHEAD. I AM NOT A SUCKER.
    Repeat the above. The BEST of the BEST Craps Players can only minimize, MINIMIZE, their losses and try to maximize, MAXIMIZE, their wins. That is it. That is the SECRET at your death bed to be able to look at your fellow players and say "Hey, dumb A***S... I had fun all of these years... and BROKE EVEN.
    Lets hear some feedback. If you think like me... so what... I am a Chicken Feeder... but grilled chicken is good when they are plump and tasty. I owe no one one clad nickel copper worthless dime.

    If you want to make money in the long run... PLAY THIS GAME: Buy 90% silver pre-1965 US Coins or 90% US gold pre-1933 coins. You lost 20% in the last year, so what... in 10 years you might be able to play $1000 bankroll Craps... because the minimum bet is $50. Silver or Gold has never been worth ZERO. Life guarantees you nothing. Investments are for the long term. Buy a Metal Detector with the money you did not lose at the Craps Table. (Like the people whose dog brought them over to rusty cans full of $20 Gold Pieces from the mid to late 1800's. Just do...not...tell...anyone! What were they thinking?


    Craps Playing for retirement income? You had better pre pay for your cremation... as you will not have anything when you die but empty pockets and some free buffets.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  6. SevenOut, Mar 3, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    However, even if you are unlucky, if you are still in the game because you still have money, you have a chance. 777
    **********

    Now that is a good one! When do you determine if you "have a chance?"

    The Casino has an 'infinite" bankroll to put up against your bankroll, home, assets, retirement, 401k, savings for the children's education, your next vacation, your bonus check... Whose Bank will be broken first?

    Smart Craps Players understand that the Bankroll is a finite number and any winnings or losses are a percentage of the Bankroll risked. $100 or $1,000,000. You better have a Game Plan with an EXIT PLAN or you WILL get punched in the head by your losses.
     
    #66
  7. basicstrategy777, Mar 3, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    If you have money, you have a chance.......if you have no money, you have no chance. Is that not true ? The less money you bring to the table the thinner your margin of 'error', I do believe.

    777
     
    #67
  8. 514natural, Mar 3, 2014

    514natural

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    You are 100% correct on that last post without question, just seems like you're forgetting to add the element that while your margin of error is enlarged with a bigger bankroll, so is your chances of losing. A bigger bankroll does not guarantee success,it merely assures you a longer stay at the table, and that is not always a good thing.

    There are even times where a bigger bankroll might cause aggressiveness and a shorter stay at a table

    Best of luck to all
    Natural
     
    #68
  9. basicstrategy777, Mar 3, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    On any toss, my chance of losing a bet with a large bankroll is the same as your chance of losing with a small bankroll ; the thing is you will run out of money quicker. I believe risk of ruin analysis i.e. the math .... says you have a greater chance of winning with a......... large session stake and low win goal.....than with a smaller session stake and the same win goal.

    I'm not saying if you come to the table with alot of money you will win.......I'm just saying the math says your chance of winning is greater with more money. If that doesn't make sense to you and you don't agree , that's fine.

    BTW, the longer you are at the table the greater the chance you will encounter a shooter with a long roll. My book has the statistcs on this.
    777
     
    #69
  10. 514natural, Mar 3, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    Agreed.
    I'm not arguing your point though,im arguing the point you left out.

    More money more chances of winning.Its undeniable.

    But

    More money also means more chances of losing more money.

    I've even seen you stress this fact in a previous post, thst over a longer stretch the casino has the edge.
     
    #70
  11. 514natural, Mar 3, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    To me there are times for more money.
    In my case,on my trip to A/C I wud need more money,when I go to the Montreal casino 15-20 minutes away,a small bankroll will suffice.

    Small bankroll with small expectations(200$ to win 50$)
    But the strategy in my arsenal yo make more with Less.

    Scenario;
    Walk up to a table, things are going good, started with a 100$ bankroll( just a scenario).Things are going so well that im up 60$, good stuff.my bankroll is now colored up(black) and back in my pocket. I am now playing with 60$.
    That 60$ turns into 100$, I color up qnd get 2 greens(25 each) pocket they go.
    Now im playing with 50$
    Things are looking up im goin up some more I color up.etc

    While this is a positive scenario these things happen, but just the same bad nights happen.a bigger bankroll wouldnt change a thing about that scenario ,cause from.the start only 10$ out of that was ever at risk. And regardless of how much I had my bankroll would like pocketed. So do you see MY logic.
    Its no problem to have your strategy and beliefs but you gotta be open to new information at times.im always open to new information hence my reason on this forum.
    I've learned alot from reading your posts 777 but with all due respect dont be so reluctant to receiving new info concerning craps, more specifically bankrolls.
    Yout very knowledgeable and nobody here doubts that. I think there is minimal importance in bankroll depending on circumstances but then again that just my opinion on the matter.
    I know id be pissed as shit leaving a casino woth 0$ after coming in with 1000$

    Best of luck to all
    Natural
     
    #71
  12. SevenOut, Mar 3, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    777 has plenty of experience and understands his Game Plan, better than we would be able to. Once any of us find a System that works... and works is the key word... keep doing it. It is not like he is blindly staying true to the plan, as you must be swift in your game as your Bankroll ebbs and flows.

    I do not believe if you are standing near the Craps Table you will recognize the right moment "to have a chance" of winning. I want to be PLAYING at the beginning of this session, by the fortuitous timing of my being THERE, and have any Bankroll to take advantage of pressing up my game, out of the $200/$300 Bankroll... but into a $1000 Bankroll game... and live to tell about it. Money Management at its best.

    As long as your wagers are paying... you keep managing your wins/presses/high House Advantage center table bets (my Hardway Betting with Place Bet Insurance). I manage to make my major wins with pressing up my Hardways... and some games they just keep coming and coming. Some games... a 4/3 or 3/4 Seven Out... but close.

    777 might think my game is as off the mark as I might feel his is... but who is correct? The person who is correct, is the one who can consistently leave the table with more chips than he began. Be it $5 or $500... it is all in the mathematics of the Bankroll and level of wagers working on the Craps Table. Both are winners. The amount means NOTHING.

    514natural plays more in my view of Craps. There is not ONE BEST METHOD OF CRAPS ACTION. Our motivation is to leave as a Winner. I have found my method works best for... me. Anyone else playing at the table... brother... you are on your own!
     
    #72
  13. basicstrategy777, Mar 4, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    It's tough to beat 'random' and 'bad luck. Real tough, no matter the system. Throw in the house edge and your are up against it big time. Throw in no discipline and booze, yada, yada, yada...and where are you.

    Craps is a tough game to win at and when you do it makes you feel extra good due to the fact your opponent has so much going for him plus you are consantly fighting you.

    BTW 514, you say I am reluctant to receive new information concerning craps......I'll let you in on a secret...there is nothing new.

    777
     
    #73
  14. 514natural, Mar 4, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    777

    agreed on all points.
    the thread however was related to bankrolls IN craps.
    Im not implying there's anything "new" about craps...AT ALL.
    And im not saying you are reluctant, some of your post were sounding defensive and I was simply saying that someone with your experience should not display such reluctance Towards the matter.
    No offense intended.

    Nonetheless

    Best of luck to all
    Natural
     
    #74
  15. basicstrategy777, Mar 4, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    514.........I'm glad you agree with me on all points.

    Regarding you saying I was reluctant.....I guess I misunderstood when you said..."I've learned alot from reading your posts 777 but with all due respect dont be so reluctant to receiving new info concerning craps, more specifically bankrolls."

    Forgive me for not understanding correctly, what you wrote.

    I consider this matter closed.

    777
     
    #75
  16. 514natural, Mar 4, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    777

    Key phrase "More specifically bankrolls"

    closed indeed.

    Natural
     
    #76
  17. 514natural, Mar 4, 2014

    514natural

    514natural Member

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    "It's tough to beat 'random' and 'bad luck. Real tough, no matter the system. Throw in the house edge and your are up against it big time. Throw in no discipline and booze, yada, yada, yada...and where are you.

    Craps is a tough game to win at and when you do it makes you feel extra good due to the fact your opponent has so much going for him plus you are consantly fighting you"

    and just so we're clear? So you dont misunderstand,those were the points I agreed with you on.

    Best of luck to all
    Natural
     
    #77
  18. SevenOut, Mar 4, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    "It's tough to beat random and bad luck."

    I am not superstitious. I do not wear my lucky socks to the Casino, as they all are the same to me. No lucky hat, coin, necklace, charm or lining up of the Zodiac and Stars on my day at the table. When you find a "BIG WINNER" at a slot machine... they say I was Lucky! ...and I inquire... how long have you been on this "lucky streak"? Well... today.

    Luck has NOTHING to do with Playing Craps. We confuse Luck (chance, good fortune, success) with hard work. You then, make your own luck. But it is not a thing, a moment in time or something to depend on if you are still breathing and live among the living.

    If luck was real, you could buy it or make it to sell to others. Dice Influencing, comes to mind.

    You win by having a workable System and a Bankroll. No luck involved.

    The "unlucky"...? They create their own misery. They repeat the same poor judgment for the same poor results. Now, if we agree to have LUCK and KNOWLEDGE to be one and the same... I will play along. It is a lack of skill that will bankrupt you at Craps. Not bad luck. It is a lack of acknowledging that Craps is a Game of Chance with negative expectations, no matter how much you know and understand about the game. And I use "game" loosely. It might as well be a guy in a back alley, at night, holding you up by gun point.

    I know we all like to compromise and feel like we are not hurting any feelings. We are a community of highly intelligent "gamblers". You have to be to withstand the speed of the dice and wagers thrown onto the table. You do not graduate from pushing buttons on a one cent slot machine and step up to the Craps Table. Craps Players are among the 5%. Not that it makes us smart or better... but this is the toughest game the Casino can throw out onto their floor. The personalities can be a bit troublesome to understand, some can be pr.cks to the ultimate... but when we win, it is one happy family with the stories as to how we win as varied as our Craps Game.

    Just leave Luck to those who carry a pocket of charms and bounced checks.
     
    #78
  19. basicstrategy777, Mar 4, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    7 Out....my very good friend here believes as you about luck. He doesn't believe in it either.

    I believe in luck and that some people are luckier than others. But what do I know.

    I also believe in intuition, ESP, and some paranormal stuff; also, I saw flying saucers.

    There is some voo-doo out there. If you put tin foil hats on 16 players around a scorcing hot table you are probably generating enough electricicty to light up a small city. I know I feel it.

    777
     
    #79
  20. SevenOut, Mar 4, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    777... we both live among Charm Sellers and Chicken Feet salesmen.

    One you can smell when they arrive and the other you can hear.

    We are like the wind. We come to a table upon a gust of wind and leave as quietly. Be well and may the hand in your pocket holding your wallet... be yours.
     
    #80