RDI: The ridiculous art of "Reverse Dice Influence"

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by Morgue, May 6, 2015.

  1. Onautopilot, May 21, 2015

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    It was just a tongue in cheek thing about the DI's not knowing the results of their tosses....they don't have to "see" it to believe the "salt and pepper" are still separated after the shake. Loosen up! :)
     
    #61
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  2. driglaz, May 21, 2015

    driglaz

    driglaz Member

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    Just because YOU can't do it, does not mean it is impossible and does not mean others don't do it.

    Leave the salt & pepper for the dinner table, not the craps table...
     
    #62
  3. Onautopilot, May 21, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    I never said it was impossible, just improbable is all. I would love to see it proven with replicable evidence.
     
    #63
  4. driglaz, May 21, 2015

    driglaz

    driglaz Member

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    Yes, I know. You probably have seen it weather the shooter was doing intentionally or by pattern of habit & lots of play time. You might have seen it and not even known it. It is improbable for many who attempt it or are at various stages of skill. It is no easy task to achieve and requires years of play to develop.
     
    #64
  5. betwthelines, May 21, 2015

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    i don't think driglaz was directing his "YOU" to you, pilot, but rather to 7s, who a while back in fact did flat out say it was "impossible" in a post then later quoted in this thread (and precipitating a tail-between-my-legs retreat and apology to driglaz!)---7s retracted that or replaced it, anyway, along with with his salt and pepper analogy above, an analogy, by the way, that i don't think is too far off...

    ok, then, now that we all agree that DI is "possible" even if for some ridiculously improbable, which do you think is "more" possible:
    --pouring a pound of salt and a pound of pepper in a container.......shaking it up real good and having all the salt on the top layer and all the pepper on the bottom
    -------------------------------or---------------------------------
    --rolling 2 fair dice one million times and never rolling a seven
    ?

    tom "home runs are often boring" p
    -g. geist: you're fuckin' with these peoples, aint ya?
    --tom p: more like beating a dead horse
    ---g. geist: yah...a couple-a dead horses even...
     
    #65
  6. basicstrategy777, May 22, 2015

    basicstrategy777

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    after a million tosses......is it possible the 7 would be due.

    777
     
    #66
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  7. betwthelines, May 22, 2015

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    lol. good one!

    but, as we (think we) know, "anything is possible"...tom "home runs are often boring" p
     
    #67
  8. driglaz, May 22, 2015

    driglaz

    driglaz Member

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    possible yes, probable no.
     
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  9. Onautopilot, May 22, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    About the same chance as having all the air molecules, in the room I am sitting in, rush out all at once....scientist use this analogy a lot in referring to "impossible from a practical view".
     
    #69
  10. basicstrategy777, May 22, 2015

    basicstrategy777

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    You may think this is not possible..........but I know a guy who couldn't get laid in a whore house with a fist full of 100 dollar bills.

    777
     
    #70
  11. TDVegas, May 22, 2015

    TDVegas

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    It's also possible there are little green men living on Saturn. This stuff could go on for hours. Saying DI is not possible carries far more weight than saying it is possible.
     
    #71
  12. Onautopilot, May 22, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    There is really nothing to argue when it comes to the possibility of effective DC. Physics definitely allows for it, it is definitely possible! In fact, physics allows for virtually perfect toss predictive outcomes. If one knew every variable, every condition, and had a method of analyzing all of those parameters, one could, in theory, predict the roll outcome with a high degree of accuracy. That is not going to happen anytime soon though. :)

    The only contention I see here, is individuals that claim to have mastered the skill, and expect others to trust the truth of that, simply because of an anecdotal account. One side requires proof through replicable evidence, and the other group really doesn't have a way of providing that proof, it is just not practical to attempt to provide it....way too many trials needed to establish a confidence level in most cases, because of the relatively small % of claimed "influence".

    I believe there was a "bet" between the Wizard of Odds and a DC claimant. But the number of trails was only 500 rolls, and the deviation from expectation in that case was just slightly over 1 standard deviation. Enough for the DI to claim victory, but not near enough to establish a true confidence level, and there was only one trial, no replication. But both sides can argue their case from the results, even though the Wizard lost the bet.

    The debate will never be settled on this forum, or any other forum. It might eventually be settled in a scientific method exercise, but I doubt it, since "casino" environment is required. There may indeed be DC experts around that are practicing their trade, and profiting from that, but I would safely assume that the majority, if not all of them, are doing it quietly.

    Each side argues their case from their own reality, and neither is necessarily better than the other. I might say, "Why are you not rich, if you can in fact do this?". The other side, "It's just not that easy, the % of advantage is very small, and isn't always there.", and on and on and on....and eventually it must be left to its own demise. I won't even mention the "school" or "book" industry, dealing with DC......most would agree that a suspect motive exists.

    I don't really have a dog in the fight, and wonder why I even comment on it....maybe like "Tom's signature" says, I like to hear myself talk! :)
     
    #72
  13. TDVegas, May 22, 2015

    TDVegas

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    Which is why I ask...how do they know then? If the advantage is so slight, almost imperceptible and not always there, how does a DI know it's influence and not just short term variance? If they are going to claim the skill---there must be some evidence they are doing it (in a 72 roll session, being able to roll more than the expected 4's and 10's for instance) or some other numbers. If they are that confident in their skill, they should have no problems showing it in a short term session. In a sense, numbers on demand. Beyond that, how do they know?
     
    #73
  14. driglaz, May 22, 2015

    driglaz

    driglaz Member

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    You know from the win-loss ratio, the length of rolls, and from smart craps software & or bone tracker. Since practice conditions are not live casino conditions, using data from 500 or 1000 or 5000 tosses in practice conditions will give a indication of your results showing they are different than random. There are formulas used to determine the advantage and win expectations.

    So the DI has nothing to prove to anyone here except their own BR. Confidence comes from performance and from winning. A DI knows his or her average roll at the table is longer than most others, a DI has ups and downs and is not always consistent but can in the long run gain an edge and if proper disciple and betting occur beat the casinos at craps.

    I think you already have seen DI's preform in a casino and they might have had a quick 7 out or a long roll. You need to be with a person for a few hours to get the proof you want. A DI can rely on "statistical confidence" and we are not talking about throwing numbers on demand as much as avoiding the 7 and having outcomes other than random - such as more occurrences of the 10 and 4 - or more hard ways landing - It is not that easy to prove if you can do it. And you can always bet against people and play the dark side....

    proof of ones di skill can not be proven on a internet message board but only in alive casino with money on the table ---- I can only tell tales of my performance having known I have influenced the dice . you can choose to take the stories as true or not (it wont effect my abilities) - And if we are in a casino you have 2 choices (bet with me or against me) - I am not saying don't betters have not won betting on me because they have but many have lost a bit also and have stopped or wont bet on me. I burn you once you learn your lesson (for the most part). How much do you have to lose betting against me before you stop? How many different occasions do you have to lose before you stop. Don't betters can be some of the most stubborn people...And even in the face of top skills they wont credit it as what it is and attribute success & hard work to luck and random results.

    DI's can be stubborn people also & we all face similar challenges.
     
    #74
  15. Onautopilot, May 22, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    The problem comes when you try and establish a "confidence level", in terms of probability and statistics, it is not a simple process. Actually it is beyond most peoples expertise unless they are schooled in those disciplines.....like Alan, Midnight, and a few others on here, but not me.
     
    #75

  16. Liman

    Liman Member

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    auto, I have to go with reasoning and experience.

    I will not say there is not someone out there that can control/influence dice to make a difference.

    heres my view on all of it.

    Lets start with the casino itself.
    I have never witnessed a casino stopping a DI shooter unless he repeatedly disregarded the requests of the crew to make sure dice hit back wall.
    which brings me to the next observation.
    The casino has many, many ways to totally stop any dice control if it at any time felt threatened, meaning its a losing game for them to make money.
    make the table higher, shorter, different surfaces, make it mandatory, dice don't hit back wall, one warning, then dice get passed, no ifs about it.
    No practice rolls or manipulating dice other than just picking them up and tossing them. One warning, then pass the dice.
    My point, the casino doesn't enforce or use any of these methods 999 times out of 1000 when it comes to DI tossers, obviously, they don't feel threatened. That's a big one.
    Then comes the laws of physics, gravity, and all the other physical stuff in the universe that will effect a throw.
    maybe table is off 2 degrees, floor is off 1 degree, humidity, condition of dice themselves, and so on and so on.

    Lets forget about all the reasonable stuff here and go straight to DI shooters.
    They have created boards and talk about how much money they clean up on.
    Not afraid the casinos might read it and change things.
    Nope, no fear at all.
    Most of them can only talk about how they win, win , win, not all the time, but make the game profitable for themselves, yet, the casinos do nothing about it. That speaks for itself right there.

    And brag and insist that they can change the statistical data that the casinos rely on to make money, afterall, this isn't a slot machine that can be set to pay off exactly the percentage they want.
    yet, with all the bragging on boards, complete exposure to the casinos and the rest of the craps playing world, they constantly refuse to let anyone who doesn't believe in it, watch them.
    with tons of excuses, the ridiculous attitude of you are a negative person, even though no one on this planet enjoys winning more than I do at a craps table, and me personally, would never bet against a DI shooter if they shoot for positive play.
    Why DI shooters keep this play under a cloak of secrecy in live play, the internet is chuck full of amazing stories of riches and famous 65 roll hands, and one fire bet win after another.
    Yet, only the internet buddies who just happen to practice DI are allowed to witness it.
    Post online about how much they win, no fear of casinos ever enforcing stricter rules, but keep the shields up so no other players will see it done.

    it all doesn't gel right.

    seems di shooters don't mind letting the casinos know they beat them on a regular basis, but other craps shooters can never witness it, nor have I in so many years.
     
    #76
  17. TDVegas, May 22, 2015

    TDVegas

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    If you were as successful as you claim over the years, you would have upped your betting limits to coincide with your advantage. Once you've skewed the advantage, there are few limits. Yet, you guys continue to go with the same bankroll...years later. Simply doesn't make sense and throws water on the belief that DI is something you can do with what I call "long haul advantage play". Yours is a war of attrition, not 1 session. Wars of attrition are won with increasing numbers ($$$$'s). You guys are still at $5 tables. Just doesn't add up with the claims.
     
    #77
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  18. TDVegas, May 22, 2015

    TDVegas

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    Same here. Have never witnessed it yet these DI guys are always claiming "heat". Never saw it, never witnessed it. I don't believe it happens unless it is for trying to circumvent the rules (short toss, army cot, taking too long)
     
    #78

  19. Liman

    Liman Member

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    whats the expression, the proof is in the pudding?

    if at anytime any casino thought di players were beating them, the game would cease to exist.
    It would be the same if the casino set a slot to pay out more than it takes in.

    but, nothing would make me happier than to see a di shooter have three substantial rolls in a row to prove me wrong.
     
    #79
  20. Bases loaded, May 22, 2015

    Bases loaded

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    I have no opinion on the subject of DI.

    If the shooter believes he/she is influencing the dice roll, good for them, I hope they roll the numbers they intend, and I am betting with them.

    Have seen dice setters roll 25+ hands and cheered them on. Have seen them PSO, and then I put my next set of bets down.
     
    #80
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