Phil Ivey loses case

Discussion in 'Other Casino Games' started by TDVegas, Oct 25, 2017.

  1. random_roller, Oct 26, 2017

    random_roller

    random_roller Member

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    A few items regarding the ongoing lawsuit between Borgata and Phil Ivey, Jr.:

    Marina District Development Co., LLC dba Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa v. Philip D. Ivey, Jr., Gemaco Inc., and Cheng Yin Sun
    https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ivey.pdf

    Note the above decision will almost certainly be appealed (perhaps by both Ivey and Borgata), pending resolution of Borgata's claim against Gemaco Inc. (for allegedly providing defective cards that were used by the casino when Ivey played).

    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-njd-1_14-cv-02283/pdf/USCOURTS-njd-1_14-cv-02283-3.pdf


    From media reports:

    http://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...ivey-ordered-pay-borgata-casino-10m/95389588/

    Per the above-linked article in NorthJersey.com:
    upload_2017-10-26_12-50-45.png

    http://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...etails-phil-ivey-10m-refund-borgata/95654864/

    http://www.casinonewsdaily.com/2017...seeks-final-judgment-phil-ivey-baccarat-case/
     
    #21

  2. Liman

    Liman Member

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    I wonder if I can summon a gaming commission officer to a table and ask him to confiscate the dice right off that table.
    then have a someone from the Department of Weights and Measure(is this still the agriculture dept, or is it consumer affairs dept, don't know exactly), someone paid for their service, show that the dice are out of whack and initiate a lawsuit against the casino for my losses, not only that day, but based on randomly picking up a set of dice, that the casino uses off balance dice and it causes me to lose, whether its intentional or not.

    afterall, they aren't supposed to be cheating right? Im sure any dice after 15 minutes use are compromised, how and how much who knows, but that doesn't matter, corrupt equipment should win me a lawsuit right?(yeah, not in this lifetime, I could just see it, some 85 year old woman who lost her house and lilfe savings, decides to have a Nasa engineer check out all the integrity of all the metal parts on slot machines she plays. Im sure there is wear and tear, maybe not noticeable to a typical slot machine mechanic, but to a nasa engineer, stress fatigue or whatever its called, shouldn't that be grounds for lawsuit also, using corrupt equipment?)

    the casino has us all by the balls, don't matter what game one plays, Im positive there is corruption in some way of equipment, whether or not it favors us at any given time wont matter, the casino doesn't have to prove it doesn't. Joe schmo isn't going to hire attorneys to take on a billion dollar corporation and try to prove it was the casinos intention or knowledge from either lack of really understanding something, or laws that aren't stringent enough to enforce things like metal fatigue or dice standards to the 10 thousands of an inch/
     
    #22
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  3. wonko33, Oct 26, 2017

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    if they were tipping the dealers , do you think the casino wants the tips back from the dealers?
     
    #23
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  4. wonko33, Oct 26, 2017

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    From what I have heard on the "Gambling with an Edge " podcast, The Borgata is also suing to get the EV they WOULD have won from those bets , unbelievable.
     
    #24

  5. Liman

    Liman Member

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    that's pretty funny, maybe they will suggest to their lawyers that all of the comped food and rooms they gave him were based on his play, but since they feel he cheated them, they might charge him for all the rooms and waffles he ate for breakfast. do you think they have records of all the food they comped him?
     
    #25
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  6. von duck, Oct 26, 2017

    von duck

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    It was the casinos cards, any rules changes, were ones which they consented to, they got their ass kicked, and don't like it. "He didn't tell us he had skill, we thought he was just another chump, like everybody else. How is it that Phil knew about the defective cards, and the casino didn't? How can so many casino people handle those cards every day, and yet not one dealer or "other" could see the flaw. It was the casinos equipment, and the casinos rules, they lost "TOUGH DAMN SHIT". I say if this NJ casino is allowed to welsh, we should all Boycott, not just the casino, but the entire state of New Jersey. I'm sure all gamblers feel "SO DAMNED SORRY" for the casino. :( :D:D:D:D:D:cool:
     
    #26
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  7. Edward-ky, Oct 26, 2017

    Edward-ky

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    I watched a video on helmuth with his top ten tantrums at the table. Pretty good. I think Daniel Negranue would be enjoyable to play with. I think we got a helmuth on here. I think he goes by TDB on here.
     
    #27
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  8. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 26, 2017

    The Midnight Skulker

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    For what it's worth here are my thoughts on the UK case.

    I agree with the statement I have emphasized but IMHO the court concentrated on the result (i.e. the rearrangement of the cards) and ignored how that result was obtained. What if Ivey had asked, and received permission from, the croupier to examine and manipulate the cards in the shoe? Would that also be considered "cheating"? Probably, but I disagree with that determination. Ivey used casino equipment and played the game itself by the casino's rules. He asked for a variation of procedure and was accommodated by the casino. IMHO this is no different than asking for the table limit to be raised. Perhaps Ivey should have mentioned that he wanted the cards rearranged so he could obtain an advantage, but again I think the court would rule that the casino was justified laughing off that explanation because it was too vague.

    Casinos contribute to government coffers and the local economy, which puts them in a favored position in disputes such as the Ivey case. Look what happened when a New Jersey court made the mistake of ruling that Atlantic City casinos could not ban card counters. That ruling was eviscerated by subsequent ones which permitted casinos to get rid of players exhibiting undesirable behavior, like wanting to continue playing after having a drink spilled on them. (Don't jump me too hard for that one, Random; it's the way I interpreted a few reports I heard in the Usenet group.) In fact an opinion I read from one of Doug Grant's cases explicitly stated that casinos were not obligated to permit his students to play so he could run a card counting school. I hate to say it, but I think the bottom line here is that in grey areas the courts favor businesses over private citizens.
     
    #28
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  9. TDVegas, Oct 27, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I also might want to know why a professional gambler needs a wing man (woman) while he is playing. I don't know if it would raise any issues as a casino boss...but if he was systematically beating me, it might cross my mind "why" is this woman here...?

    It's hindsight now...but it would not surprise me if these things are being discussed in the corporate offices as far as future play.
     
    #29

  10. Liman

    Liman Member

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    you brought up a point, Im sure the casinos dole out huge bucks where it counts. Im surprised we haven't read more about palm greasing in the casino industry, well, Im sure everyone keeps their trap shut and just gets rich. greed is a good thing and no one is spilling the beans when they find that goose.
     
    #30
  11. TDVegas, Oct 27, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I have a good friend out here who worked as a casino host for many years. Some of the stories he has told me. The pressure on them to get their player in the seat is unreal. For the right player....the answer is "yes". Always.

    There is a lot about the industry that is unseemly. If you think about it, gambling is one of those endeavors that brings out a lot of crap.
     
    #31
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  12. von duck, Oct 27, 2017

    von duck

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    OK, Dufus, since you asked, I'll explain the whole thing to you. In order to "chump" this casino, Ivey, aka. "deep pockets" must convince the casino to turn certain cards a certain way, and that this is being done for superstitious reasons. Enter, the wing woman, aka "Tokyo Rose", that's her bit, to appear very superstitious, and request that this or that card, be turned a certain way, which the casino gladly agrees to do, in hopes of lifting "deep pockets" wallet. It's a trade off, she needs his very fat wallet to entice the casinos greed, and he needs her academy award "superstitious Asian woman" act to get the casino to agree to the "new rules", and whole thing worked like a charm. Why did it work, for one reason only, THE CASINO'S GREED. It was their cards their dealer, and they agreeing on the new rules. They got their ass kicked, and if they don't pay, they are welshing, the bet, period. I have only one question with the whole matter. Who first told them about the "edge thing" and why? Do you now know why he needs the woman TD?:) :cool: Plus he might be bangin her between sessions.:D
     
    #32
  13. wonko33, Oct 27, 2017

    wonko33

    wonko33 Member

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    Phil Ivey has developed the reputation of being a great poker player but kind of a degenerate gambler with other games, from the reports I have heard they were playing the superstitious Asian gambler with Phil hitching his wagon to this "lucky lady" angel. I heard interviews with his partner, she is pretty funny. She either plays a role or really sounds like that and people would not think she's some kind of sharp player or anything but in fact she's pretty smart
     
    #33
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  14. von duck, Oct 27, 2017

    von duck

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    How would edge sorting be "cheating? If he had made the marks, on the cards, yes, if he is just gleening available info, no. It is in no way, the responsibility of the player, to make sure, that the casino does not give him an edge. What goes around, comes around, and Phil brought it right back to them. If this other casino is allowed to welsh the bet, the players then should close it down, with a boycott. "PAY UP DEADBEAT BORGATA" or suffer the consequences.:confused: :) :cool:.
     
    #34
  15. von duck, Oct 27, 2017

    von duck

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    The thing about Negreanu is, he makes it look so damned easy, and I will guarantee you, it is not. :) :cool:.
     
    #35
  16. TDVegas, Oct 27, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Uh, yeah...***I*** already knew WHY she was there.

    Apparently my hypothetical went over your head.

    I’m not surprised.
     
    #36
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  17. TDVegas, Oct 27, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Phil is the consummate degenerate gambler. He has the bankroll to do it but this guy will wager money on cockroach races, the weather or whether duck boy has had 1 or 5 beers today.
     
    #37
  18. KokomoJoe4, Oct 27, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

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    Baron,

    Go back to a post about a year ago re Ivey and this issue when it first became news. Pretty sure I initiated the thread, and stated that if Phil is smart enough to do what he does in order to win loads of money, more power to him. Here is a guy who probably never worked a day in his life who is worth some big bucks.

    Since the sort-able cards are put into play by the establishment, and since their employees are stupid enough to cater to Ivey's wishes to let him view the marks clearly, of course he is entitled to his winnings. He clearly "won".

    As to how such sorting is cheating, what I (and I'm sure the court) means by "cheating" is that it will be considerably easier to win at a card game when you know the identity of the cards before they are visible in play.
     
    #38
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  19. von duck, Oct 27, 2017

    von duck

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    I wonder how many casinos, balked, at this offer? One would have to question the competence of the Borgata's casino management. They agreed to the game, they dealt it, and I'm sure they would have kept the money if they had won. I think this is pretty "cut and dried" and if Phil has to return the money, the casino has been allowed to welsh, plain and simple. It is up to the gamblers, to make sure, the casino, does not get away with it, what say, gamblers? :cool:.
     
    #39
  20. von duck, Oct 27, 2017

    von duck

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    Phil fosters this persona as a degenerate gambler, and now you, and a couple of "chump" casinos, know why. Borgata casino manager says, "this guy is a degenerate gambler, Oh boy" we love degenerate gamblers, give him anything he wants. What goes around, comes around. Boycott this joint, until Phil is granted the winnings, plus reimbursement for his associated expenses. let's make this a victory for the players, one way or another. :) :cool: Just for the record, I almost never drink, and when I do, it's not beer.
     
    #40