# Pass/Don't Pass vs. Come/Don't Come betting for true odds

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by BuckShot, Feb 10, 2018.

1. BuckShot, Feb 10, 2018

### BuckShot Member

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Not sure if this is a "good bet" but i see a few people betting Both:
1) Pass/Don't Pass then putting max bet in behind.
2) Come/Don't Come then betting min odds on the Come to Number

Is this normal? was the guy simply trying to bet on the positive side with chump change for true odds?

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2. Onautopilot, Feb 11, 2018

### Onautopilot Member

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If you state the amounts bet on the pass/don't, and the amount of odds he was taking, you could do the math and get the "expectation" for the entire bet amounts. That would give you a good idea of the validity of the strategy he was employing.

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3. basicstrategy777, Feb 11, 2018

### basicstrategy777 Member

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In short, the doey-don't is a bad bet......however, RE: house advanatge, it is the best bet to make to hedge the DPL The reason the DPL player loses when playing Don't is the come-out roll....after that, if he gets past the come-out roll, he has the advantage.

It appears the guy is a Right player and is playing the doey-don't....I don't understand why he is doing that.

Page 141 of my book gives the house edge for playing the doey-don't..

Your dice have the pips on the wrong faces

777

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Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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4. KokomoJoe4, Feb 11, 2018

### KokomoJoe4 Member

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777 is exactly right.

DD is used as a hedge to off-set come out losers for the Don't bettor, who knows that for one roll, he is a 3:8 underdog. Once past this one roll and behind a number, he becomes an immediate 2:1, 3:2 or 6:5 favorite.

As such, he is in a position to lay maximum odds on the now favored bet.

Instead of losing about 20% of his come out wagers, he will have a wash about 98% of the time coming out, losing only to the push on the twelve.

As 777 stated, it makes NO sense for the Do bettor to use the Doey-Don't. He loses his one benefit as a Do player, the 22% immediate come out winners.

The game is already hard enough to beat. Don't do the house any more favors.

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5. BuckShot, Feb 11, 2018

### BuckShot Member

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"Doey-Don't" that's a good name for this. I also noticed last night a similar bettor played the Pass/Don't Pass > 10 was the point > Bettor put the max odds behind the don't.

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6. basicstrategy777, Feb 11, 2018

### basicstrategy777 Member

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He should have hedged with a hard 10...only 2 combination out of 36 could have beaten him.
777

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7. lone irish digit, Feb 11, 2018

### lone irish digit Member

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I hope I am not violating any non disclosure agreements which I don't remember signing, but Opie with his higher level math "strategy" uses the doey-don't as his base bet and then decides after the comeout which side to play based on indicators, past results, higher level string theory, and warmth of table/dice. He has a 99% win rate over the last 5 years and is not even a DI. I am sure if he diligently practiced DI he could improve his win rate to 99.5%...

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8. KokomoJoe4, Feb 11, 2018

### KokomoJoe4 Member

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Incidentally Buckshot, you must change the pips on the dice in your avatar - otherwise risk the wrath of the EagleEye, who will advise you why the opposite sides of dice must add up to seven.

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9. KokomoJoe4, Feb 11, 2018

### KokomoJoe4 Member

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Scratch this - 777 already told him this 12 hrs ago. My bad.

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10. Dave G Ct, Feb 11, 2018

### Dave G Ct Member

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Interesting topic.Yes the Don't better can make use of this to take the 7 out of the CO equation.
As for the right better a doey don't on a Come bet is wise. If the point is made the Come better will not lose on the forth coming CO. Not a bad play.Did not the Captain use this?

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11. KokomoJoe4, Feb 11, 2018

### KokomoJoe4 Member

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Yes, but this was before Frank came to realize that the D-D is not worth a damn for the Do bettor.

At some point after this first mention of the Captain, Frank converted him from being the inventor of the 5 count and the Doey-Don't or so-called Supersystem, into one of the world's greatest shooters and Father of DI.

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12. lone irish digit, Feb 11, 2018

### lone irish digit Member

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Dave you got a memory like the elephant TDV. When I ran with the Captain in 1982 he in fact was a big advocate of the doey don't. Looking at one of the few remaining pictures of the captain in existence today, I had long forgotten this fact and the fact that I use to wear a hat like the Supperick.

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13. von duck, Feb 11, 2018

### von duck Member

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The pips on the dice are wrong? I told you it was TD, who else could F'k that up. Good observation.

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14. von duck, Feb 11, 2018

### von duck Member

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Maybe "Buckshot" IS EE2, and he's taking the bias out of HIS dice

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15. BuckShot, Feb 11, 2018

### BuckShot Member

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Ya lost me on that last reply? EE2?

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16. \$nakeEye\$, Feb 11, 2018

### \$nakeEye\$ Member

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I totally concur - Lou's prowess as a DI leaves a LOT to be desired -

However, his finesse / expertise at predicting immediate future outcomes is without question - unparalleled !

As is his " Win Ratio / Rate "

MY " opinion " !

\$...eE..\$

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17. von duck, Feb 12, 2018

### von duck Member

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Eagleeye II. Is one of our more eccentric posters. Accused by some of not being himself. One of his "pet-peeves" is the contrived placement of the pips on the dice, which he thinks is responsible, for the extra sevens we all encounter. I think he and MsPee, are having an affair, but don't tell anybody, cause she really needs the "action".

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18. von duck, Feb 12, 2018

### von duck Member

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Dave, the best use of the Dewy/don't, is to use it as a way to get very cheap buy\lay bets. To play it to its max, on say a 10X odds table, you would bet in the following proportions. \$30 PL, \$30 DP, \$1 on 12. This completely eliminates, come-out variance, you're either down \$1 or you're even, and rolling again to get on a point. Once on a point, you can then take or lay the odds at \$300. So, what you have, is either a \$300 buy, or a \$600 lay bet, that you got for \$1. The only drawback, as opposed to normal buy/lay bets, which in this case would normally cost you \$15 each, is that you don't get to choose your number, you have to take what's thrown. I think this is a small price to pay, to deprive the casino of 93+%, of their vig. This, is the reason casinos, and those that speak in behalf of the casinos, I.e. TDV, OAP, 7OUT, etc, hate this bet, and say things like
"The Dewy/Don't is a bad system any time any where" [sic] . It's actually a pretty good deal if you're a buy or lay bettor.
In reality you actually wind up paying \$1.46 for each buy/lay, but still a 90% savings of vig. This is due to C/O 7s, YOs, & Craps, where you still lose the midnight bet.

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Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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19. Mssthis1, Feb 12, 2018

### Mssthis1 Member

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If you have bankroll to lay or place \$300 in odds forget about the hedge which costs you an additional \$6 every 36 bets

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20. von duck, Feb 12, 2018

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