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Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    I don't know for sure how long we have had tribal casino's here, I guess some what
    over 20 years. They started with slots, then went to table games with a bingo type black
    jack game, then on to full table games.

    Craps caught on slow, but pretty soon everyone had a table or two.

    Now it is dead.....why..i am not sure. Maybe because there are so few players your chance
    for a good is less because there are less rolls. There used to be small groups of 2-4 players
    that would move around to many of the tables. About a year ago I started to get phone calls
    asking if I had seem a difference, or asking where I was playing now days.... to a man they
    indicated something had happened, they just could not win anymore.

    But today, Lac Due Flambou not open in evening, maybe on Friday or Saturday, Carter
    not open on weekdays or Sunday, mayber Friday or Saturday, Mole Lake, the table is
    gone, Turtle Lake, may have a half table open during the week, Keshena, maybe Thursday
    Friday or Saturday, Sunday if there is a player.maybe, Bowler At 4 mosts days with
    half a table open, Green Bay.. home of the packers..... one table during week.

    I was at Keshena Sunday night.....I was the only player.... the last 4 times I was
    the only player..they indicated it looks like the table is going to be closed. The
    dealers don't want it closed, but one I know well said... well look at tonight, 4
    dealers on the table and one player and you beat the table for $500, how do you
    explain that to casino management....

    I like to play alone, so this is good for me,but I also like to play during the week, which is
    not good for me. I wont play on a table with more than 4-5 people on it. so the few that
    are open on Friday and Saturday nights, I wont play on.

    I thought maybe craps was a fad and just died, but there were a good sized group
    that played every week, everytime you saw them they were talking craps.They are
    all gone except for 6 guys that do play Bowler every week on weekends, and Bowler
    does have a fire bet.

    The loss of the hard core player means, that more times the table is empty and most
    new people wont go to an empty table, certainly not a 14 or 16' one.

    Anyway.... very soon if you want to play craps.... it will be back to the locations that
    existed 20 years ago.
     
    #1
  2. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Very expensive to run a craps table. Up to 4 employees, all making a salary, getting health insurance, 401K, etc, etc.

    Players had for years taken an attitude "that's their problem".....and it was. The casinos no longer except that premise.

    Every square inch of casino floor and every cost associated with the table is crunched, re-crunched and spit out by the bean counters. It is expensive to run a table. Many will deem it not worthwhile...especially with other options.

    The days of Benny Binion offering great odds, good whiskey and good food and "letting the action play out" are over. Table space has been getting squeezed out by regular slots since I can remember.

    Bubble craps has definitely cannalbalized some table action. I know it. Many of the players on the bubble are former table players or they play both. Playing both means the table is losing that guy for 50% of his action.

    Very, very difficult to justify 4 employees on a table with 1-2 players playing minimum with pass line wagers when the bubble has caught on with many and has ZERO employees.

    The bubble is cheap. No labor. No pit. No chips. And, no delays. 20 seconds.

    The table isn't going to disappear in total...but the options may diminish.
     
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  3. Twelve4s, Apr 5, 2017

    Twelve4s

    Twelve4s Member

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    If there was a bubble anywhere close by, I would probably be on it.
     
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  4. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

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    the traditional table has a negative for the new generation....

    It needs someone to do your work. An employee.

    I equate it to a bank teller. In today's world, you don't need a teller anymore. I can take a check, photograph it with my iPhone....deposited. I can deposit and withdraw cash or checks with a bank ATM. The younger generation doesn't want to deal with humans if they don't have to. They don't want a sales associate pestering them in a store. They use Amazon. They buy online. Automated.

    The craps table is a relic if you think about it. It needs 4 employees dictating action, taking your wager, setting it up, paying it off. Pushing the dice to you. All stuff anathema to millennials and those who look to eliminate the middleman.
     
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  5. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

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    There are two guys here who I have met. Both are and have been decades long table players. Both have embraced the bubble to some degree. Maybe not wholly, but they certainly would like to know if it's offered when they enter the casino. They will play it.

    That alone tells me....the table IS losing some action.

    I think it depends how you look at the game. Those that think they impart some influence or control over the dice thru their toss might not be converts. Traditionalists might also be a tough convert. Those that view the game as essentially random will take a look at the bubble. Shit, lower minimums, no waiting, no cranky employees, no heat.

    It's a personal choice. As the OP noted....the landscape is and has been changing.

    No worries, the table will be there. The choices and minimums? Maybe not so much.
     
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  6. twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    nice try TDV


    Except we don't have bubble crsaps here so it has nothing to do with it.

    tdb
     
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  7. random_roller, Apr 5, 2017

    random_roller

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    I saw some of the same things (closed craps tables, few players where a craps table was open, excluding Potawatomi) TDB described in his OP when I stopped by a few casinos in Wisconsin last November. Only Oneida (Airport) and Ho Chunk (and of course, Potawatomi) had an open table. Outside of Potawatomi, the table limits on the craps tables was $500 or less. It's expensive for the casino to staff craps tables, and if the craps tables aren't getting enough betting action, it's hard to justify keeping them open.

    Fortunately, craps table availability isn't an issue in Chicagoland. Stop on by down here, TDB.
     
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  8. twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    random roller

    We understand what is happening here...the question is why????

    tdb
     
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  9. KokomoJoe4, Apr 5, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

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    It's all market economics.

    When something is wanted and in demand, the owner (house) is in control. If there are enough players to accomodate five tables, they will make the minimum bet as high as it can be and still have full tables. If play at one or two tables slows or stops, make them $5 or $10 minimum and they will fill back up.

    Depends on the population and the economy. People like to gamble and will go to the casino if they have disposable bucks.

    When there is a lot of competition in a market, this will force the various places to have better freebies or better rules of play than their competitors. Maybe place X will mail out $25 free play comps to all their players, while place Y might decide to offer $3 minimum bets and/or increase allowed odds from 3-4-5x to 10x.

    TDB, it simply sounds like people do not like these tribal places enough to go there. Are there better corporate places nearby?
     
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  10. Twelve4s, Apr 5, 2017

    Twelve4s

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    I've noticed a lot of turnover with craps crews. Seems like when they just get half way competent, they're gone. I haven't seen a stick who can handle prop payouts at a slow table. Forget it, if the table heats up. I wouldn't want to be a casino executive trying to hire and retain good dealers when they don't make a decent wage, unless the tips are there. My last session on a full table for 2 hours, I was the only one tipping consistently. One guy who was betting across on every player and losing his ass kept buying in for $500 a pop. He pulled out a wad of bennies about 6 times. Never tipped even a buck. So how do you retain good dealers? It's not easy, dealing craps.
     
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  11. tabletop123, Apr 5, 2017

    tabletop123

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    Tdb, YOU know why.........But just leave it be! No sense in getting folk panties all in a wad by REVEALING why! No sense in starting another war!

    The Indian Casinos are definitely killing off the Crap Tables, & I suspect that within the next couple of years Table Craps will be non- existent in the Indian joints!

    Pretty hard to CONTINOUSLY play in venues wherein you see more crap numbers than 6/8's!
     
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  12. KokomoJoe4, Apr 5, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

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    A mecca for craps Pittsburgh certainly is not, but 9 of 10 dealers here are very good and fast with the prop bet payouts, and tables at the Rivers are almost always full.
     
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  13. Twelve4s, Apr 5, 2017

    Twelve4s

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    Sounds like they know how to retain good dealers. Maybe they pay them what they're worth? How are tokes there?
     
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  14. von duck, Apr 5, 2017

    von duck

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    You see it too, knew it couldn't just be me.
     
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  15. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

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    With more casinos opening up...the market is getting saturated. Coupled with the new mentality of bean counters...operating a craps table----it's quite possible they see better options. Binion would weather the highs and lows. He didn't care. No so today anymore.

    I think KKJ has hit some key points.

    I highly doubt craps is dying because because tribal casinos are using unfair, imbalanced dice---cheating customers and players are throwing the towel. No way.

    This likely comes down to choices, economics and competition....and in some respect attitudes of younger gamblers.

    When a casino bought a slot machine...it stayed for years. I see RR changing out slot machines that are maybe a couple months old now. No one sticks with it anymore. If it's not working short term...move on. Try something different. Close the table. Limit the hours. Increase the minimums.

    Todays casino is dynamic. Not so even 20 years ago.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  16. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

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    My guess....it's coming. Sooner rather than later.
     
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  17. twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017

    twodicebilly

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  18. twodicebilly, Apr 5, 2017

    twodicebilly

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    I agree with that.... soon there will be no more tables,,

    OH MY GOD....... that mean I have to go out by TDV more..?????

    That thought just sent a cold chill over my whole body....

    But I have to admit..... years ago there was something about the trip
    to vegas to play craps, that you don't have here....maybe in the
    end for the serious guy it will be a good thing

    tdb
     
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  19. lone irish digit, Apr 5, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    Craps Pooper had a great post on this board a few months ago which focused on this phenomena and it centered around the aging population and how the utes like games with flash and bang and like a lot of sex and such and how the craps table will go mostly into the sunset with the departing of the baby boomers. It was a great post and I would have Barney look it up and repost it here but he is still being interviewed.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  20. TDVegas, Apr 5, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Everyone comes to Vegas....

    The gaming. The weather. The entertainment. The fun.

    second to nobody on all 4, IMO.
     
    #20