New System: 6 & 8 - 12 for 14 system

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by Craps Poopshoot, May 7, 2017.

  1. basicstrategy777, May 11, 2017

    basicstrategy777

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    OAP....you are probably smarter not playing them. At least per the math.

    I guess you should follow the math.....

    777
     
    #181
  2. tabletop123, May 11, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Ever wonder WHY you're attacked? Simply because you "Push people's button by asking for proof of every phenomenal win! (Dice Influencers)

    Case in point: A poster says he had a 70 roll hand, won huge, tipped the dealers well, & your first response is "Prove it", my bullshit meter is ringing!

    Now, if a random Roller made the same post, he/she would go unquestioned!

    You repeatedly post things like "What Casino were you playing at"

    I mean, REALLY.....who the fuck is gonna tell you THAT? Ya know people are smart NOT to give all of the particulars, ESPECIALLY if they are playing with an advantage! ( or think they are)

    It just seems to me that the guys that say they are influencing the dice get harsher responses from you!

    Personal attacks, & re-hashing Old Drawn out Personal information about guys that you don't agree with is a very petty way to prove a point!

    Yep, a lot of the guys that USED TO POST on this forum are my friends! It's a shame that they decided to leave, because we can all learn SOMETHING from one another!

    Doesn't matter to me what kind of bone you have to pick with Superrick! When you mention Rick, I'm gonna IMMEDIATELY chime in & defend him! Why? Because I consider him a friend, along with a few others that left the forum!

    He called me a Bitch, so I called him a Pussy! Is all of this REALLY necessary? Let's talk Craps, & how we can win more money, & lose less!

    Oh, I forgot.....The game cannot be beat, so just kick back like a Big Mac, play for recreational purposes only, but most importantly.......Don't forget to Fed X your wallet to the Casino's Cashier Cage!

    See you at The Top!
     
    #182
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  3. TDVegas, May 11, 2017

    TDVegas

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    I asked for proof of a win? I may have said the win was based on luck on the table and did not affirm that it was based on dice influence or other voodoo reasoning. That's not asking for proof of a win. That's simply a belief on how it happened. I address the "one sided" claims below---that could influence my questioning, I guess.

    Proof of DI? There have been many asking for this. No one has stepped forward to offer it...even though I'm not sure how they would do that. The bohunk?
    I will not (may not) attribute that win to anything but luck...but someone had a 70 roll hand and I said they did not? Where? I think you are confusing things. Long term SRR claims of 8...sure, there's no way. Ain't happening. A long hand roll? We've all done that. Bullshit meter is pinging? LOL. I have said that. I'll have to search the context. You could be right.
    The methods don't get questioned. Right. it would be luck and they agree.
    True...then again, if it's a big secret---why are they saying anything about it on an open forum? I don't know who they are, what they look like. I don't know their name. If they have paranoia about me finding them (how the hell can I do that?)...why are they saying anything about their advantage play abilities???
    Point taken...I've already stated in another thread that my anti DI rhetoric has diminished...although a couple said don't do that. LOL. I really haven't responded or posted much in the DI forum lately.

    Sure...the methods (dice influence) were questioned. What I also found a bit suspicious from the DI players as opposed to the randies....you never really heard losing report from the DI's. It was pretty much all peaches and cream. You being the exception...although I'm not sure you consider yourself a DI anymore. Now I know. They lose. They just don't like to say it. You being the exception.

    If you look back at your reports when you were doing well...I offered hearty congratulations to you. No question. No "bullshit". No "you're lying". Simple congrats. "Well done, TT".

    When a poster here says "TDVegas has thrown in the towel" on craps...well, damn straight he's going to get a response he may not like.

    There is also a ginormous fallacy being promoted by some of the short bussers (DI)....present and former members....including the thread starter.

    The idea that us 99%'ers (randies) are playing craps....not to win, but for simple recreation. FALSE.

    Every damn player here is playing to win. Their strategies are playing to win. The idea that fun or recreation is part of that mix DOES NOT diminish that fact.

    We had a former member denounce those who say they play for fun (he said it pisses him off to hear it---you know him VERY well)....and that former member is playing godamn 25% house edge fire bets!!! Spare me who is playing to win and who is playing for fun.

    Playing craps for fun does not mean you don't play to win. Your strategy, your win limits, your loss limits determine if you are "playing to win" at a greater level than someone else...not your stinkin mindset of "I play like a pro".

    Our resident tough craps player PLAYS TO WIN. OAP PLAYS TO WIN. Liman PLAYS TO WIN. TT PLAYS TO WIN. TDVegas PLAYS TO WIN. We all have different methods and means (bankroll, win limits, etc.)...but we are ALL playing craps to win. Playing recreationally does not diminish that fact. So, yeah...I take a little exception to the idea that the short bussers are "serious" craps players and the guys I mentioned are merely "there for the fun of it".

    Maybe you can clarify it for me TT...in the heads of SR, Harley, Poop and a few others here----what exactly is meant by "playing to win"?

    Now, lets move on to winning some money.:)
     
    #183
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  4. betwthelines, May 11, 2017

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    really? ready for more logorrhea, are ya? ok...you aksed for it...lol

    over the years it has changed/adapted in its details but not really in its basic structure or theory.

    in the early years when the only bank craps game in the country was in nevada it was a bit different in those details since back then "the Tough Craps nightmare" was to be in vegas and NOT have bankroll to PLAY <GASP!!> so as things got dicier, play might devolve to maybe pass line only, the duration for that would of course depend upon outcomes (ALWAYS a factor) but too time left til the flight back would be a factor as well...etc.

    today most of those factors no long exist and the current scheme, which has been in place for several years now actually, follows.

    this is not really as over-complicated as it looks but i struggle to lay it out succinctly and briefly (o gawd! big surprise, right?)

    ------------------------------------------------------
    the bankroll---actually i prefer "stake" as bankroll has too many other connotations is $500.

    WHEN THE WORD "BET" APPEARS--unless otherwise noted--WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ODDS BET, the only one of strategic importance to the TC player...p & c bet results are however and of course included in the resultant dollar amount status of the bankroll but these required bets DO NOT CHANGE with a come out of craps or a natural...one could start with $5 p or c and roll 79 consecutive craps, 7s or 11s & the p or c amount would be the same $5 on every one of them! (bit of a contrast to your play, eh koko?...lol)...p & c are nothing but vigorish to the TC player & consequently kept as low as possible to get your bet.

    When Even or Ahead

    $0 to $299 the bet is $10
    the bet progression on ANY win is $10->30->30->50->75/80->100->150->200->300->400->500->750->1000->1500->2000->3000->4000->5000->7500->10000 and so on...there is no limit except the table limit and even then the TC player might lobby for a higher one lest he would need to locate a higher limit elsewhere until the very highest limit he can find/jawbone for is reached ("the Tough Craps fantasy")...all of this might very well involve catching the next flight out...

    he will come out on -or more accurately limit it to- 3 points (1p, 2c) if $0-$99, 4 if $100 to $199, 5 if $200 to $299

    at any point if he loses $100 from his highest bankroll attainment---for ease of tracking done in rounded increments of 100---he will drag, pocket $100 (x the number of $100 losses) and "pretend" that the rermainder is his new bankroll...obviously if one continued on without ever dragging money, especially so with an extremely progressive gambit, one could never win in bank craps...this might not seem like much (frankly at this level i do not recall it ever being more than the hun) and often puts one into negative territory (with the "pretend" bankroll i mean) but (if) as the bankroll progresses into the higher bankroll brackets, this becomes quite significant.

    $300 to $899 the bet is $20
    the bet progression is $20->60->60->100 and so on per above

    $300 to $499, 3 points, $500 to $699, 4 points, $700 to $899, 5 points.

    the drag is $200 per $200 lost

    $900 to $1799 the bet is $30
    bet progression is an extremely aggressive $30->100->100 and so on per above

    $900 to $1199 3 points, $1200 to $1499 4 points, $1500 to $1799 5 points

    the drag is $300 per $300 lost

    $1800 to $3299 the bet is $50
    progression $50->150->150 and so on per above

    $1800 to $2299 3 points, $2300 to $2799 4 points, $2800 to $3299 5 points

    the drag is $500 per $500 lost

    $3300 to $6299 the bet is $100
    progression $100->300->300 and so on per above

    $3300 to $4299 3 points, $4300 to $5299 4 points, $5300 to $6299 5 points

    drag is $1000 per $1000 lost

    $6300 to $10799 the bet is $150 (possibly $200)
    the progression is $150-> 500->500 and so on

    $6300 to $7799 3 points, $7800 to $9299 4 points, $9300 to $10799 5 points

    drag is $1500 for every $1500 lost

    or possibly
    $200->600->600->1000 and so on

    $6300 to $8299 3 points, $8300 to $10799 4 points...anything more would require a higher bet bracket (starting at $300)

    drag is $2000 for every $2000 lost

    ------------------------------------------------------
    obviously at any point one might lose and drop back into a lower bankroll status...the starting bet would simply reflect that...this allows one to regress as the dice cool down but still allows for a relatively high bet should the dice remain warm...conversely one might get hot and actually skip forward to a higher status, going, for example, from a $10 start right to a $30 start.

    also ---and the TC player really does not like to do this---and rarely has--- this because it is somewhat at odds with his philosophy of relentless progression--and never mind that it gives the lie to some of his assertions in that regard...lol ---but it has happened when a given session must come to an end & the next day the TC player has dragged all the way back to the beginning, ie "pretending" his bankroll is $500...OTHERWISE shit just continues the next day as if IAOBS---ATYD...but too the TC player is not immune to the utility of money.

    ------------------------------------------------------
    When Behind

    which is obviously most of the time

    the bet is $5
    the bet progression is $5/6->15/16->15/16->25/26->40->50 and so on per above

    when -$1 to -$99 limit to 5 points
    -$100 to $399 4 points
    -$400 to -$500 3 or fewer points depending of course how much is left...anything less than $11 will not be played but will however be carried over to the next stake...for example the next stake might be $509.
    now aren't you just glad you aksed, koko?

    any questions? lol

    tom p
     
    #184
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  5. Onautopilot, May 11, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    I only use the math to see what my chances are with different betting schemes. The math does not dictate my play, it just gives me an idea of the luck I need on any chosen bet...center bets included.

    When, and what t bet, and how much to bet, are choices made at the table in some cases, not at the laptop!

    Why you continue to portray anyone that considers the mathematical expectation of certain strategies, as someone strictly playing by the math, is beyond me.
     
    #185
  6. KokomoJoe4, May 11, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Aha!

    So the minimum number of wagers is three, unless of course the fricking things are losing at an alarmingly rate, making it an impossibility to get out what you would like. I'm thinking of something like box number, add odds, "seven out winner on the Come."

    So BTL is indeed an action junkie, not that there's anything wrong with that.

    It surprises me that you will still get a number of bets out there, even when you are getting clobbered, but yes Virginia, to each his own.
     
    #186
  7. tabletop123, May 11, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Nope, I do NOT consider myself a Dice Influencer! Your FIRST clue is that I do NOT reside in a Casino town, & the second clue is that I spend Waaaaayyyyy too much time on this forum!

    No, I consider myself a Mechanical tosser ( MT), & nothing more! Yes, I won't shy away from it.......There WAS a time wherein I did consider myself a Di! What changed things for ME? Further & in-depth slo-mo investigation of MY tosses!

    I came to the sad, but true conclusion that a Wealth of my seemingly perfect tosses, wherein the dice rotated in perfect sync, & nailed a Specific Spot, fared no better than if I had tossed the dice out of my Ass with absolutely no precision!

    These were MY results, but I CANNOT, & Will NOT judge Other's ability to influence the dice, based upon my results!

    I DO know that there are shooters that consistently get better results than the average shooter!

    Life Sustaining results.....NO! Results good enough to remain on the positive side of the ledger? In my opinion.....YES!
    Superrick, & Others:
    I cannot convey what is in the mindset of others, but FOR ME, playing to win means " Sending it in" Hard, & Heavy for 1-2 hands ( preferably 1 hand), & quitting the session ( Win or lose)!

    As I've said before, I don't want to have fun while playing! Winning is the ONLY fun to ME, & if you ever saw me at a Craps table, you'd swear that I was running to catch a flight!

    I REALLY don't want to be there, but ya gotta play in order to win! I just severly limit my playing time......That's all! No advantage, voodoo, or magic Dust!

    It's simply the way that I choose to play!

    In reference to Superrick, Gargoil, Poop, & Demango........Friends of mine......That's all there is to it!

    Damn right, I'm gonna defend them when they are unnecessarily attacked! Do they sometimes make bad decisions? Of course, we are only human!

    Sometimes in the heat of arguments we say things that are out of character! You guys KNOW that I have done it many times ( in the past), however, there comes a point in time wherein we must put on our "Big Boy" Pants & move on to more productive conversations!

    Understand that as OAP is your buddy ( for the record, I admire the guy for his composure, & Iron Clad Discipline to REMAIN civil) that you will quickly defend.......Old Top has buddies too!
    See you at The Top!
     
    #187
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  8. basicstrategy777, May 11, 2017

    basicstrategy777

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    My mistake.

    I thought you figured out what is the mathmatically best way to play ( lowest HA, lowest risk of ruin, highest frequency of payout, greatest ROI, etc,etc.....and than play that way.

    I wasn't aware you ignored those math things and just flung the dice and muttered...." who cares, it's all random anyway".

    777
     
    #188
  9. Onautopilot, May 11, 2017

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    Actually, the "tough craps player" is playing one of the lowest EV strategies out there.......minimum pass, and come bets, with higher odds.

    He is just doing it with GUSTO is all. :)

    He losses a lot of sessions, and gets behind a lot......BUT, when variance shines on his play, call in the armored truck. :)
     
    #189
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  10. Onautopilot, May 11, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    Once again you twist a post to suit your reality. I said no such thing. But I guess when your position is weak (gambler's Fallacy & Vodoo) that's the only way to handle" it, hu?
     
    #190
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  11. TDVegas, May 11, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Fair enough...
     
    #191
  12. basicstrategy777, May 11, 2017

    basicstrategy777

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    Twist= you can't have it both ways ( but maybe you can )

    777
     
    #192
  13. KokomoJoe4, May 11, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    A very succinct, truthful analysis that is in perfect agreement with the observations of everyone who plays the game - there is a lot of variability to the results, regardless of who is shooting and no matter how pretty the shot.
     
    #193
  14. betwthelines, May 11, 2017

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    the Tough Craps player has played bank craps so much over the past 16 years that it is positively SHAMEFUL!

    at the local joint alone he has been at the rail over 340 days!! no, no, no, i mean 8,465 hours, an actual, full 340 days at the rail!

    add to that "approximately" 50 full days at non-local joints during that period---prior to that it actually goes back to 1974, but play was much, much less frequent (one to five trips/year to vegas and when other casinos opened in other parts of the country just only slightly more than that).

    this is extremely excessive and obsessive...curiously though, and believe it or not, bank craps does not seem to be an "addiction"...he has sometimes gone for months without play---and even as he sits has not played since returning from his winter wanderings over a month anda halfa ago---without any "withdrawal" symptoms...frankly right now he does not see himself at the rail again for some time to come with no emotional distress over that whatsoever.
    there are two things going on in the thought process of the T C player...first given his excessive volume of play he does not even see the possibility of playing any other way...the house edge, tiny as it is, will implacably, unrelentingly, grimly drag one down...he simply plays too much to contemplate playing otherwise.

    secondly from Day One maybe ten years old or so what compelled him to gamble was the thrill, just the prospect of winning large...back then this was $32 using monopoly dice (true!) thrown up against the cement town hall facade...there has been no turning back since.

    no, no, no, no, no, NO! you are not understanding...i mean winning fucking HUGE!

    tom p
    -g. geist: for someone as emotionally withdrawn as you this is a surprisingly revealing post
    --tom p:
    ---g. geist:
    ----tom p:
    -----g. geist: catharsis maybe?
    ------tom p: shit no
    -------g. geist:
    --------tom p: or if it was supposed to be, it failed
    ---------g. geist:
     
    #194
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  15. Liman

    Liman Member

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    early 80s, I had skip by night in yonkers the final of the pick 6, the 6 winners of 6 races, and he was the most heavily favored trotter in the north east, I was told by everyone, its a lock, I was looking at 2 tickets worth around 2400 bucks, the track experts explained to me, I was buying beer and pretzels for all my buddies before the race started. the horse broke out of the gate, a 50 to 1 long shot, papa herman won the race. Ill never forget that night, or the horses name, 20 people told me it was a lock. All the experts.
     
    #195
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  16. basicstrategy777, May 11, 2017

    basicstrategy777

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    Liman......horseracing is almost as tough as craps. The favorite wins about 33% of the time. The horse can't talk and tell you how he feels......he might stumble out of the gate......he gets boxed in......he breaks a leg.....a nail may have be been hammered too deep when he changed shoes......the fix was in......it's called racing luck.

    You must have shit when he got beat.

    777
     
    #196
  17. KokomoJoe4, May 11, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Love those hours logged BTL, not to mention the variety of locations at which you play.

    When you speak of huge (let's leave Liman out of this), you will always at some point (except in the movies, where Mr. Bond may wager as much as he wishes) reach the house limit.

    In fact, the ONE time I had this problem, I had to talk the box into letting me exceed the limit by a measly $400. Lost the fricking bet. ^$:-(#!^* :(. My point is, the best you will be able to do is get each and every wager to that limit. Not likely but not impossible that you can increase from there.

    I know, I know - you can always seek out a higher ceiling elsewhere, but for Gosh sake, keep playing wherever it is you are winning until you see a loser - you'll just have to level off those big bets until the loser shows, but perhaps there is still a come winner, with the loser, thereby keeping that lifetime game going strong.
     
    #197
  18. whodat, May 11, 2017

    whodat

    whodat Member

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    Thanks for the info. I always like looking into new "systems" to get a different perspective on craps. A couple of years ago, I tried 7-out's system for a bit but it didn't pan out for me. i have a question for you. According to what you have laid out, does that mean that if my starting bankroll is $500, then my odds should be $20 to start? The casinos where I frequent only has minimum table of $15.
     
    #198
  19. whodat, May 11, 2017

    whodat

    whodat Member

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    Tom,

    Recently I experimented with a combination of your play above and the Dice Doctor's basic pass line play. In his method, he would only play 1x odds but would increase pass line+odds on wins. For instance, 15/15(16), then 25/25(26, 35/35(36), etc. I did a twist on that by leaving the pass line the same but increase the odds 15/15(16), 15/25(26), 15/35(36). Your Tough Crap Method incorporate the odds increase only but at a much higher rate.
     
    #199
  20. betwthelines, May 11, 2017

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    yes, the starting stake is $500. "starting" is loosely defined however as the ending bankroll of a session might--indeed almost always does (when there is anything left..lol [wtf em-i laughing at?])--carry over to the next session, which might be the next day or even a week etc later as in "It's All One Big Session---And Then You Die."

    no, assuming the starting bet is with a fresh $500 stake (ie no "carry over" from the previous session), the initial bet is $10 as he showed (because he is "even")...remember too when he talks about a "bet", unless otherwise noted, he is talking about the ODDS bet.

    the Tough Craps player does not play at a $15 table even if there are no other options available, although an exception might be if his carryover bankroll is at such a staggering state that it might be expected to last at least a few hands (this has never happened...and, really, unless, incredibly, continuing to win, the high "drag" would probably soon bring it down below where a $15 table is no longer feasible [but of course those big drags are still now in his pocket!])...rarely, reluctantly, he "might" play at a $10 table if nothing else is available...

    ...anyone CAN play "tough" for any other dollar amounts or even with a completely different betting strategy, for example, an unvarying bet amount or one with little or no progression/regression.

    playing "tough" simply means betting only the lowest ha bets...(very, very) liberally interpreted this might even include placing the 6 & 8 and certainly could include buying the 4 & 10 at a favorable break point (which, unless he is mistaken, might even have a lower ha than a line bet, but since this is too taxing to figure by the relatively weak--or at least drifty--mind of the T C player, he forgoes it)...some tables even offer a free, no vig, buy on the 4/10 (rare) in which case these would be the only bets the T C player makes unless "forced" to make a line bet when the only shooter at the table...otherwise the dice are passed to avoid the vigorish of the line bet.

    the T C player is in capital letters because there is only one known in the world who plays tough exclusively...he takes the liberty of using the third person simply as prosaic license, given that fact, a fact, btw, which has not been disputed in over 20 years of posting it on craps sites.

    thank you for your questions.

    tom p
     
    #200
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