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Discussion in 'Prop Bets & Side Bets' started by rockitdice, Jul 9, 2012.
Changes to game made. Updated below...
I will have to think about this for a while before I cast my vote. I am not a big fan of side bets, but if the HA isn't outrageous I might be tempted to toss a buck on the Big Rock. Meanwhile, I offer the following.
Question: Does a comeout 7 resolve all Rock-It bets the same way a 7-out does, but allow new Rock-It bets to be placed while a hand is in progress?
Question: To win the bonus do the letters "W", "I", and "N" have to appear consecutively at the beginning of the Big or Lil area, or can they appear anywhere in that area? For example, is the sequence "INWINN" a bonus winner?
Observation: Boxpersons come and go. Without one to mark and track this bet the pace of the game could be negatively affected, particularly if the stick is also inside.
Observation: While the Big Rock and Lil Rock bets have the same chance of winning, the Big Rock bet appears at first glance to be the better one because of the way the WIN disks are distributed. Using "N" first means I want the higher numbers to be thrown first so that the "N" will be at the end of any sequence of letters. Of course this is more likely to happen for the higher numbered die than for the lower numbered die. Perhaps the bonuses for those bets should be different.
Agreed....you ever seen the lazy mofos miss a number on ATS??!?!?!
Sidebets are for suckas....
Notice how large the ODDS are printed on the felt
New payout table coming soon....
My jury is still out on this. Being something of a purist I much prefer to hope that the dice will pass or miss, depending on which side I am playing, rather than to hope for some specific result that does not affect the point. In fact, I can foresee some situations where I might be simultaneously hoping for mutually exclusive events: aces or sixes on a comeout roll to fill out the Big or Lil areas respectively while betting Pass/Come, for example. Of course there's a flip side: use Rock-It as a hedge. Like I said, my jury is still out, though I am leaning towards a fifth alternative in your poll: "I rarely make side bets but would consider this one when I do."
As side bets go Rock-It's are not all that horrible, and the hit frequency of Big and Lil, once every 20-25 times on average, actually looks attractive, for a player could expect at least one win, not necessarily a bonus win but a win nonetheless, in a session of reasonable duration.
This addresses my observation that the bonus was easier to obtain on the Big side than the Lil side. I could not tell from your image that the bonus payouts were different. I do have an additional question, however. If "WIN" spans the Lil and Big areas (and both areas are filled of course) does that qualify the It All Rocks bet for the bonus? For example, what does It All Rocks win if Lil has "NWNIIW" and Big has "INWWIN"? Obviously the blue "WIN" qualifies, but what about the green one?
I take it, then, that offering this side bet requires a boxperson. You may need to address this in your marketing efforts.
Currently, an electronic avenue is being sought to aid in the dealing. Cannot give details currently, due to protection rights currently seeking.
Midnight, is there a way to allow people to vote on the poll - only if they post a comment first? Would like feedback as to why they wouldn't bet these bets; H.A., H.F., etc..
You will have to ask Jacob, the administrator. You can do so via Private Message to Jacob, although he has been pretty good about monitoring the forum for such questions in the past.
Meanwhile, while I am still thinking about my own vote, I have come up with another observation/question: Have you considered the space requirements for the Rock-It Dice layout? Will it and the special discs fit between the prop area and the bank, which is where I presume it will be placed? How about those tables with layouts that include the hop bets above the prop area?
The space needed takes the same amount of space as the ATS bets take up. I have even considered splitting hop bets section into 3 parts, close to each other still. Left side will be hopping 6's, 5's and 4's. Right side hopping 8's, 9's and 10's. Hopping 7's will be placed in center of bar that usually says "HARDWAYS". They will all still be closer to top of prop section within reach of boxperson if needed. Rock-It bets are placed above that, below paddle drop area(towards stickperson).
OK, I've voted for Option 4. Being as I occasionally play Eddie's Hardway Parlay and a similar progression on the yo I cannot honestly say I would not play Rock-It at all. The HA and HF of all three methods are roughly equivalent. OTOH I'm a purist and so side bets in any game are not part of my basic betting strategy; I use them only to "get the juices flowing", if you know what I mean, and so I can see myself using Rock-it the same way and with the same frequency as my prop parlays.
Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into developing your (sorry, can't resist) Rock-It science; I wish you well in your efforts to sell it to the gaming industry.
Just had another thought while typing this. Casinos in California have had to stand on their heads to offer craps because of some archaic state law that forbids dice from being used as the sole determinant of the outcome of a game of chance. What they have done is turn craps into a card game, and in some versions dice are still used to select cards which then determine the final result. You might want to investigate whether or not tying Rock-It Dice to the actual dice (rather than the cards selected by the dice) is feasible and legal. My argument for legality would be that Rock-It Dice is not a stand-alone game, merely an option of the main game of craps, the results of which are ultimately being determined by cards. Fancy footwork, perhaps, but it just might get you some votes on the reality show Dancing With The Lawyers.
You are right Midnight.. California is such a small portion of the Dice market, so currently, I'm not planning to have these side bets based on cards. Thanks for your input and time dissecting the game. This is what I was looking for.
Separate note: Because some do not like the dealing aspect of such game, has made me look into using electronics to aid in the dealing.
Problem is - you're asking the wrong people. Experienced players probably won't step up and play the game. However, tourists who like carnival style games may be all over it. You just never know until you stick it on the casino floor.
I tend to agree, but I do not think the negative reception here is due to the game's carnival nature per se. This is, after all, the same audience with which the fire bet seems to be quite popular. Rather I submit it is Rock-It Dice's distance from the craps mechanic. The fire bet still pivots around points being made. The All-Tall-Small bets can also be thought of as a group of place bets being won. Rock-It Dice treats the dice separately and so has no similarity to any other bet on the table. It may therefore lack appeal to serious players but, as you say, attract the neophytes and casual players because it is, or at first glance appears to be, so simple.
I actually refer the bets somewhat as a All-Small-Tall Hop Bet of sorts. It's basically a series of specific hop bets needed to roll; and if rolled in certain sequences they win larger payouts.
You do have a point, though I did not make this connection until you mentioned it. At the risk of getting more philosophical than the discussion warrants I would suggest the association with the all-day hardways is stronger. For example, to get the 2 on Big Rock one has to throw either 1-2, 2-1, or 2-2 before a 7.
After speaking with several Box-persons, they dislike having to do the marking of the discs; they believe that should be a Dealer's responsibility because it is the actual dealing of the game and not supervising. As well, they have issues with the amount of space left in front of them for change making and such; as with the ATS bets. Also, it has been brought to my attention the lack of a Box-person usage or that Box-persons are permitted to get up from the game at anytime in the Vegas market. Another complaint with game was the "WIN" bonus requirements could be confusing to some players; the viewing of 6 spots being so adjacently close being able to view the word "WIN" out of the marked spots may be difficult for some players.
These critiques or criticisms, have prompted me to make the following changes:
1) The Base Dealer to the right of the Box-person is now the Lil Rock Side Dealer. This Dealer will mark the outcome, on their side of layout, that corresponds to the outcome of the lowest die rolled; as long as a total of seven is not rolled. The Base Dealer to the left of the Box-person is now the Big Rock Side Dealer. This Dealer will mark the outcome, on their side of layout, that corresponds to the outcome of the highest die rolled; as long as a total of seven is not rolled. Each Base Dealer will have their own six discs used to mark die outcomes. Each dealer will have two discs labeled "W", two labeled "I" and two labeled "N". Dealers will mark using their discs labeled "W" first until gone, then discs labeled "I" until gone and then discs labeled "N"; on Dealer's respective side. Base Dealers will mark at the point of addressing the field on each roll; Stick-person will announce in their stick calls total of dice first followed by down behind if needed, then high die outcome then low die outcome(example: eight easy, down behind, six-two hopping, no-field, don'ts and comes travel). These steps eliminates the need of having a Box-person, or the need of having the Box-person mark the spots.
2) The Lil Rock spots, to be marked, are now located around the FIELD area on right side of table; when looking from inside pit outward. The Big Rock spots, to be marked, are now located around the FIELD area on left side of table; when looking from inside pit outward. There are three spots labeled across the top of each FIELD area on table, and three spots labeled across the bottom of each FIELD area on table. These steps increase the space in front of Box-person on layout and makes viewing the word "WIN" less confusing, because the word "WIN" has to be spelled across top or bottom of a FIELD area or both top and bottom of a FIELD area(all six spots on a side still need to be marked in addition to the word "WIN" needed being spelled to win higher payouts).
3) These side-bets are setup by Stick-person now, as betting lines are located above hard-way or Hop bet area.
Do these changes answer anybody's concerns of game they may of had?
Below is revised layout sections.
My first observation is that using the W's first instead of the N's makes it more difficult to get the WIN bonus on Big Rock than on Lil Rock. This is the opposite of the original version so you may need to modify the bonus payouts for a single instance of "WIN".
I also wonder if you meant to have the sets of numbers (1-3 and 4-6) appear on different lines. 1-3 is on the top of the Lil Rock side but on the bottom of the Big Rock side.
Suppose the Lil Rock side looks like this.
Is this a bonus winner? If not (i.e. if "WIN" must be wholly contained in one of the sets 1-3 or 4-6 and cannot span sets) then the single instance bonus becomes much more difficult to get and the HF of it will be greatly reduced. Additionally, if the single instance payout is not increased the HA will be greatly increased.
Another consideration is that in this revised version each side (when completed) is restricted to two and only two occurrences of each letter. In the original version each side had to have at least one N, but after that any other combination of letters was possible. Have you recalculated the HA and HF of this version?
The new math is currently being worked on, I forgot when I posted Bet Bars to remove old payouts. Payouts for the Lil Rock and Big Rock Bets should now be the same with new layout posted.
Thanks for your input, again.
Payouts for Big and Lil Rock bets should be same now, another math submission I guess.