Jack Cleveland Casino -- Cleveland, Ohio

Discussion in 'Casino Reviews' started by random_roller, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. betwthelines, Nov 14, 2016

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    ------dammit, random! now you got me started!-----
    without some very broad hints that i prefaced it with here a trivia question that VIRTUALLY NO ONE can answer correctly is:
    "it was not until 10 seasons after the first national league team (the dodgers in 1978) drew 3 million+ paid attendance fans that an american league team finally drew 3 million (the dodgers by then had done it seven times & were joined by the mets and cards a time or two in that)...who was the first american league team to draw over 3 million fans?"
    the surprising answer is the minnesota twinks, commonly considered a "small market" team.

    when asked to discuss the greatest twinks teams ever, twinks fans generally get it wrong. focusing on the '65 ws year and the '87 ws championship year (a year in which they won only 85 games following 69 wins, good enough for last place, the previous year)...

    no. their best team was in 1988, partially explaining the 3+ mil attendance but also it is the year following a ws win or ws entry where one generally sees the significant uptick in attendance...so, yes, random, you can probably look forward to that...

    puckett (hof), g-man, bernansky, hrbek, glan dadden, laudner (allstar), gagne, harper, lombarrdozo (fielding anyway), blert byleven (hof), frankie "sweet music" viola (ml win leader, 24, 2.64 era), allan anderson (al era leader, 2.45), jeff reardon (2.47 era, 42 saves) steve carlton <sic>(hof), even juan "you're gone" berenguer (still had it as a set-up man) and others (very strong bench) were all terrific between the lines in 1988, winning 95...only the fact that the oaklands won every damn day precluded another western div pennant...

    ...nope '88 was the best twinks team ever tho i would grant that, yes, you could make a strong argument for the ws year of '65 when they won 102 (killebrew, oliva, versalles, allison, battey, kitty kaat, pascual, j perry, mudcat, worthington, boswell et al...wow..

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    ok...here's another one...see if you can answer me this one:
    who is ONLY major league player with 500 or more at bats to hit ZERO home runs in a season and also over 30 home runs inna season?

    tom p
    -g. geist: hmm...that's a good one...who is it?
    --tom p: no, no...you hafta guess.


    "Well, a-beat the drum and hold the phone
    The sun came out today
    We're born again, there's new grass on the field
    A-roundin' third and headed for home
    It's a brown-eyed handsome man
    Anyone can understand the way I feel...

    ...Well, I spent some time in the Mudville Nine
    Watching it from the bench
    You know I took some lumps, when the mighty Case struck out
    So say hey, Willie, tell the Cobb
    And Joe DiMaggio
    Don't say it ain't so, you know the time is now...

    ...Yeah, I got it, I got it

    Got a beat-up glove, a home-made bat
    And a brand new pair of shoes
    You know I think it's time to give this game a ride
    Just to hit the ball, and touch 'em all
    A moment in the sun
    It's a-gone and you can tell that one good-bye...

    ...Oh, put me in coach, I'm ready to play today
    Put me in coach, I'm ready to play today
    Look at me, gotta be, centerfield
    Yeah"

    --john fogerty, Centerfield, 1985
     
    #21
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  2. random_roller, Nov 14, 2016

    random_roller

    random_roller Member

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    I haven't followed the Washington Senators, er, Minnesota Twins too closely over the years. But I do appreciate the job Tom Kelly did managing the Twins for years. I'll try not to be unduly influenced by the fact the Twins played in arguably the *WORST* stadium ever; referring to the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome as the "Hefty Bag" is an insult to Hefty Bags. BTW, I would have picked the '91 Twins that won it all as their best team because, well, they won it all. More importantly, though, that edition handily beat the Blue Jays in the ALCS, a team that would go on to win the next 2 World Series ('92 & '93). Oh, and the '91 team won 10 more games in the regular season than the '87 WS champions and 4 more than the '88 team you mentioned (which didn't even win the AL West that season). How did Blyleven manage to have a 10-17 record in '88 when the Twins finished 20 games above .500? Could it be the 5+ era? On that basis alone, the '88 team should be DQ'd as "greatest ever" edition of the Twins. That's one of the oddest stats I can remember.

    As for your question, just to clarify the zero HR and 30+ HR seasons were both accomplished in the Major Leagues (e.g., not in an international league before/after a major league career)? My initial thought was Brady Anderson or Rod Carew, but I don't think Carew ever hit 30 HRs in a season. How about a clue?
     
    #22
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  3. betwthelines, Nov 15, 2016

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    a clue might easily give it away but i will try to think of one that won't...no these were in 2 major league seasons...and, hey, no cheating please although frankly i tried to google/look it up myself and while my search was not all that lengthy nor exhaustive, i did not find the answer...

    just think onnit and make a guess or more guesses please (carew i thought was a pretty good one but only in 2 of his 19 years in the bigs was he even in double digit dingers (14 in both 1975 &"77...and in 10 of those years his totals were zero to three! 4 once even)...if no one gets it i will provide the answer next week...

    o. ok. if i get some more wrong guesses in the next couple-a days. i will cut it in half and name the league. so make a guess and post it rather than just making it, then looking it up and not post it because you know it's wrong...that's no fun, is it? iow humor me, ok?

    it is a quite interesting stat, tho, don't you think?

    ----------------------------------------------------------​

    my '88 pick is based upon that team's play between the lines, always my basis more so than stats ('ball is more amenable to stats than any other game, true, but still does not completely capture the poetry, the serendipity, the way of the stats, the goings-on between the lines)...and i did see a great deal of the twins in '65 (even back then 50 games were televised, 49 on the road as i recall), '87, '91 too (sorry i failed to mention '91)...1988 was a tom kelly team par excellance...solid, fundamental, fielders, made physical errors, sure, but rarely mental ones, never did i witness a throw to the wrong base & sometimes saw brilliant field sense where it "might" have been the "wrong" base but the fuckin' runner was gawdamn out!!, were not all that fast but knew how to run the bases...KENT HRBEK IS THE ONLY FIRST BASEMAN IN MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY TO PUT THE TAG ON THE RUNNER ON EVERY THROW OVER TO FIRST BASE! or any throw to first base where a tag was applicable, EVERY FUCKING ONE!! (check any film or video if you do not believe me) whether the runner was already on the base or not made zero difference...slap, slap, slap...tap, tap, tap...at least 4 times i saw hrbek get an out on a throw over to first that most first basemen, sometimes and maybe even generally lax, even lathargic in this area, probably would not have gotten when the runner, already on the bag lost his balance and ever-so-slightly slipped off the bag!...(i am bragging [& as 7s might tell ya, effete even...lol] wheras the 0 & 30+ yard thing is eminently guessable, when i say that i am perhaps the only 'ball fan that notices these types of things---no. i mean it EVERY fuckin' time, tap, tap, tap, slap, slap, slap...hey, see also my "triples" rant link below...no one notices [nor admittedly even cares] about that shit either but dammit! it is telling and interesting: i could save that one for a trivia question too except that NO ONE could possibly guess it [and, really what fun is that then?] although this one can be easily googled and ascertained from the triples records)...remember too hrbek's controversial game 2, 1991 ws play where he "might have" knocked ron gant, retreating to and ON the first base bag, off the bag but all the while having that firm tag on his ass. a controversial out that was no gawdamm fluke for kent hrbek! while that game was in the 'slum, i laughably recall the bitching and moaning from afar on that one by the atlantic's fans...

    (((don mattingly won all the gold gloves because he was probably an overall better ball player than hrbek and was [[[you cannot convince me this was not salient]]] a new york yankmee but he was NOT a better fielding first baseman than kent hrbek. [[[imo it is a shame that there is no pure fielding award in mlb...the former factor of this paragraph to a large degree trumps the purity of the award as well as being on an elite or at least successful team...the greatest fielding infielder of the 2000s --IMO BY FAR -- never won a gold glove...nick punto was not in the major leagues for FOURTEEN YEARS because of his batting (.245, 19 HR)...his 84 errors in over 7,916 innings and fielding pct of .978 is right up near the top for infielders with that many chances but that "only" includes by major league standards anyway majority "routine" plays of course but if a ground ball out in nick punto's vicinity was physically, HUMANLY possible to be made, 9 out of 10 times when i have been witness that fuckin' umps thumb was in the air...i saw nick make a play in spring training 2007 that still drops my jaw just re-visualizing it...inches in front of him a smash to short took an instantaneous last 1/20th of a second "bad hop" that went three feet over his head...the runner was out by several feet...his reaction time was nearly superhuman...but it was at the keystone sack where nick was truly astonishing...what were "certain" infield hits became outs with physical moves in the only possible, possible way it could have been done...it was not just his obvious physical fielding abilities but his incredible instincts on just how to get it done that were so remarkable to see]]])))

    between the lines, baby, between the lines...

    further, many of these '88 players---gaetti, hrbek, frankie v, harper, laudner, randy bush (a fearsome, clutch pinch hitter that the stats do not always reflect and despite a lack of speed no slouch in the outfield either in his utility billet there), mark portugal and i think some others had been together for 10 years including the minor leagues by1988, one more year-on from the ws championship...further still, tk managed those players in the minors a couple of those years as well...

    sure, they "won it all" as you put it, in '87 also but substantially the same team came back in '88, one more year together under their belt and won 10 more regliar season games than in the championship season...they did not even capture the west's flag (like i said the oaklands won every fuckin' day...whattayagonnado? 1988 was one helluva team...it was not just basking in ws championship glow that brought out that very first AL 3 million either...no...more than a few who know great ball when they see it also turned out...

    as for blert's '88 record, well blert, a borderline HOF-er anyway, was always somewhat up and down, in the hall primarily for his longevity and stats build-up...not that that should disqualify him as some argued against his induction nor would i argue strenuously that he doesn't belong there but it is an ABSOLUTE, ABSOLUTE BLEEPIN' BLEEPIN' TRAVESTY that blert is in there and jack morris is not...a dominant al pitcher for 10 years! and with ws rings and performances that were sterling----legendary even: you brought up '91...game 7 was the closest (ok, not quite) i ever saw tom kelly actually cowering, so livid, puffed up, towering over kelly and red-faced was black jack at even the THOUGHT that he would take him out after nine...final twinks 1, braves 0...a 10 inning game 7 shutout...in the raucous locker room tk was famously and hilariously videoed and quoted as saying, "ah, what the hell...i left him in there...why not?...it's only a game".

    all the more remarkable since it did not involve elite (and ratings friendly) coastal teams, ESPN selected the '91 ws as the "greatest of all time" in their "world series 100th anniversary" countdown...somehow even though five of its games were decided by a single run, four games decided in the final at-bat and three going into extra innings without that incredible game 7 i do not believe it would have made the cut...

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    i believe a strong case can be made too for the 102-win '65 al champs, even beat both koufax and drysdale in the first two games (sandy was ultimately too much, shutting them out on 2 days rest in game 7)...but i am with '88 twinks as the best and stickin' to it!

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    you are spot-on too, random, about the metroslum...i am glad that you backed-off further insulting hefty bags, a fine product.

    by contrast to that 'ball-mockery place the cozy target field is a delightful ballyard...and an amazing engineering feat the way it was shoehorned into its available, scarce real estate...

    being the contrarian that i am, with all of the what-i-had-thought was syrupy, disgusting, over-the-top hype given to it prior to its opening, i was fully prepared to diss the shit out of target field.

    instead it was love at first sight! even the hype might not have done it justice! a wonderful park for watching 'ball...all is good with venue if not the team, who lost more games (103) than ever in the club's history this season...10 better than your 1904 senators however franchisewise.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.crapsforum.com/threads/triples.9840/

    ---------------------------------------------------------​

    um...i could go on...no. really. i could.

    tom p



     
    #23
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  4. Bases loaded, Nov 15, 2016

    Bases loaded

    Bases loaded Member

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    One of my favorite ball players was Rod Carew. I love the guys who seemingly can get a hit whenever they want one, Tony Gwynn, and Ichiro are similar.

    Me and Rod moved to California at the same time - late '70s.

    He did not have Twin type years with Angels, but he was still very good.
     
    #24
  5. random_roller, Nov 15, 2016

    random_roller

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    @TomP

    IMO, Blyleven gets the nod over Morris for HoF consideration. Check out the 1984 season.

    Blyleven: 19-7, 2.87 ERA, 170 Ks, 74 walks, 4 shutouts on a 75-87 Cleveland Indians team (6th in AL East). Oh, and the paralyzing curveball that was his hallmark.

    Morris: 19-11, 3.60 ERA, 148 Ks, 87 walks, 1 shutout on a on a 104-58 World Series Champion Detroit Tigers team (1st in AL East).

    Over their respective careers, Blyleven pitched 60 shutouts and 3,701 Ks, compared with Morris' 28 shutouts and 2,478 Ks. Add a @0.60 lower career ERA for the Dutchman. If he hadn't spent @5 seasons on horrible Cleveland teams, Blyleven would (in all likelihood) have won 300+ games and been a lock for Cooperstown years before he finally was voted in.

    If I had a ballot, I'm not sure I would vote Morris into the HoF. He's certainly worthy of consideration, but he was not a 300 game winner, didn't have 3,000 strikeouts, or 50+ shutouts, nor did he win multiple Cy Young awards. That being said, he was a gamer and wanted the ball in crucial situations and usually delivered. But no way I would vote him in over Blyleven.
     
    #25
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  6. random_roller, Nov 15, 2016

    random_roller

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    Without a doubt, a very interesting -- and highly unusual -- stat.

    I had also thought Larry Bowa or Pete Rose might be a possibility, but then again the 30+ HRs is likely problematic. 0 HR (w/500+ ABs) and 30 HR are polar extremes, which is why I had guessed Brady Anderson. Somehow, he hit 50 in a season one year but wasn't known as a slugger. I'll bet BS777 loves that guy.
     
    #26
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  7. betwthelines, Nov 16, 2016

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    blert byleven LOST 250 games (287-250, .534 win pct...morris 254-186, .577 win pct), 97 more decisions than jack, 33 more victories (a mere .340 winning pct on the decision overage)...the difference between a win pct of .534 and .577 is NOT statistically insignificant over the course of 22 & 18 seasons...

    we were talking too about the ws...their ws stats are similar (.667 but again 6 decisions for jack, 3 for blert) but except for don larsen's perfection jack's '91 game 7 was the the greatest gem in ws history and nailed down espn's ascribing '91 as "the greatest ws in history"

    like i said blert is in the hall PRIMARILY due to his longevity and impressive build-up of stats (lol...how else does one amass 250 losses & still be allowed to pitch?)...IIANM it was not until his final, certainly close to it, year of direct eligibility when he was finally voted in...and indeed a big reason for that delay was a feeling and criticism that his stats were inflated because of that longevity...personally i think that that is a bit unfair & that longevity is not a negative and as i also said, i am not arguing that blert should not be in the hall...

    i am arguing only that he should NOT be in there AHEAD of jack morris...if i have to win one game and have a choice between morris and blert as my pitcher, i would take black jack every time...he was a dominant al pitcher for a decade...blert never was in either league...you said yourself you were bemused by his poor stats in 1988, the year of the twink's best team but his career, unlike jack's, was always a bit more up and down...

    in the "fierce competitor" category we can name many of course (pete rose, many more...to some extent maybe all just in making it to the bigs) sure, blert of course was there...but in that category maybe only ty cobb outranks jack morris...maybe not...

    further, if you get your head out of the stats and look between the lines you might see differently...i witnessed both pitchers a lot when with the tigers (jack) and twinks (both)...true, blert would wow yah an' have 'em shakin' their heads at his round house (not unlike camilo pascual in an earlier twinks era) but when getting a crucial out for the win or to keep the win alive more so than with blert the ump's thumb was in the air.

    i did give your post a "like" though as i LOVE the HOF debates!...while i as here sometimes disagree (hell, can't be a "debate" without that, huh?), i love the fact that the standards, unlike perhaps for those of the lesser sports, are so high that someone like jack morris is apparently not good enough.

    tom p
     
    #27
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  8. random_roller, Nov 16, 2016

    random_roller

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    Morris' higher winning percentage is directly attributable to having been on better teams/run support overall over his career. The 0.60 era discrepancy is testament to this. Morris doesn't even have half the shutouts that Blyleven amassed. Game over.
     
    #28
  9. KokomoJoe4, Nov 16, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Bert had one of the best curve balls you will have ever seen.
     
    #29
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  10. betwthelines, Nov 16, 2016

    betwthelines

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    well, blert is in the hall and jack the winner isn't so, yup, i guess you're right.

    a travesty nonetheless...lol :cool:

    tom p
    -g. geist: still an' all there was one player with over 500 at bats who hit zero homers and also 30+ dingers one time inna season...
    --tom p: yup.
    ---g. geist: and you know who it is...
    ----tom p: yup.
    -----g. geist: you know, that's pretty surprising
    ------tom p: what? that i know the answer or the stat itself? lol...yes it is pretty interesting, ceratinly a surprising stat...the answer, however, is not particularly surprising...
    -------g. geist: brian dozier? maury wills? larry bowa?
    --------tom p: nope...hell, wills barely hit any homers...bowa neither
    ----------g. geist: so...um...that he hit 30+ only once...is thatta clue"
    ----------tom p: yah...unwittingly yes, sort of a clue i guess, though not a very helpful one really..
    -----------g. geist: yup

    ps come on, you guys! even g. geist is making guesses...you can give it a shot too! there can certainly be no embarrassment witha wrong answer on this one...

    if i getta few more guesses, will start tomorrow or next time i'm here, giving clues til someone gets it or or else will offer the answer inna week or so...otherwise will just deem no interest, no shock with my posts...lol.
     
    #30
  11. KokomoJoe4, Nov 16, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Tough Q BTL How about Dusty Baker?
     
    #31
  12. betwthelines, Nov 16, 2016

    betwthelines

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    awesome guess, koko!

    (((and thank you for not looking it up [[[thus consequently not posting at all cuz you would then know it was a wrong answer, a "humor me, please" request to encourage posted guesses]]]...one may however "cheat" by googling the specific question...i did try this myself but thereby could not find the answer...thus i would be "almost" as interested or impressed if someone did locate the answer online as i would be if they actually made the correct guess...i did run across a site with 200 'ball trivia questions and while i certainly did not go through them all, i did contact them with an "answer me this" email...lol...waiting on them to cogitate onnit and answer me back...lol)))

    dusty did blast 30 one year (1977) and did hit zero 4 times but the most at bats he had in those zippo seasons was 64.

    tom p
     
    #32
  13. random_roller, Nov 16, 2016

    random_roller

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    The 60 shutouts (in 685 starts) and 3,701 strikeouts (4,970 IP) are numbers that convinced me Blyleven is HoF-worthy. Hall-of-Famer Tom Seaver had 61 shutouts (in 647 starts) and 3,640 strikeouts (4,783 IP). The shutout numbers between Blyleven and Seaver are really close. But consider this -- 7 of Seaver's shutouts were with the aid of the 15" mound height ('67 & '68), whereas Blyleven had none with the more favorable pitcher's mound, as he didn't pitch in majors until 1970. Anyone who has pitched should understand the significant benefit of throwing off a higher mound. Also, Seaver spent most of his career in the NL and only faced the DH in his final 3 seasons, whereas Blyleven spent all but 3 seasons pitching for AL teams. How many opposing pitchers did Seaver strikeout over the years, while Blyleven had to face a real hitter (DH) instead? Yet Blyleven finished with more strikeouts. Oh, and more complete games (242-231). BTW, Jack Morris isn't even in the picture in any those categories (28 shutouts in 527 starts; 2,478 strikeouts in 3,824 IP; 175 CG).

    I'm not disputing Morris is worthy of HoF consideration, but as I previously indicated, I probably wouldn't vote for him. But I respect your right to be wrong on this issue. :D
     
    #33
  14. random_roller, Nov 16, 2016

    random_roller

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    It's relatively easy for a SP to be credited with a loss -- and fairly difficult to get credit for a win -- if his team doesn't score many runs (and/or doesn't field well). Didn't Detroit have some obscure DP combination at SS & 2B while Morris was pitching for the Tigers?
     
    #34
  15. random_roller, Nov 17, 2016

    random_roller

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    IMO, the more challenging part (of the 2 criteria) isn't the 30 HRs, it's (by far) the 500+ ABs without a HR. I mean, that takes some sort of Duane Kuiper-ish ability. Or perhaps a line drive hitter who played a season or 3 in a HR-friendly ballpark but spent most of his career playing for teams with a pitcher-friendly ballpark. I think Tony Gwynn might have had a shot at 30 HRs if he had played at Coors Field when he was at his best. Not sure he ever met either criteria, but he certainly had the ABs and the line drive mentality rather than swinging for the fences, so he probably had a few single-digit HR seasons.
     
    #35
  16. KokomoJoe4, Nov 17, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Gwynn or Carew? Two unbelievable hitters. George Brett wasn't too shabby either. I used to really like that Red Sox outfielder, was it Fred Lynn? Thought he was going to be the next big thing. What happened with him?
     
    #36
  17. random_roller, Nov 17, 2016

    random_roller

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    Fred Lynn won the AL MVP & Rookie of the Year in '75, if memory serves. First (and perhaps only) player to accomplish that feat in the same season. Unfortunately, that immediate success is akin to winning big during a player's very first craps session; often downhill from there. I think Fred Lynn had a decent ML career, but the next Joe DiMaagio or Mickey Mantle never materialized.

    George Brett was a great player, even if he did use a bit too much pine tar on occasion.
     
    #37
  18. betwthelines, Nov 18, 2016

    betwthelines

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    rodney cline carew had already been guessed and a good guess too imo...

    as is tony gwynn a good guess...for three seasons in a row, 1989, 90, 91 tony went yard only four times each but with 604, 573 and 530 ABs respectively...close to that zippo mark anyway...and then when you consider his ability for vicious lined rockets thinking that he might have blasted 30 once also is not unreasonable...indeed he smacked as many as 17 one year...good guess...

    but first thing i thought about your brett guess was, "nah, george was a slugger, coulda never hit none with over 500 ABs...but i'll be darned, if in his rookie year he hit only 2 and with close to the measure in ABs, 457 so he is a better guess than i would have thought...

    george ended up with 327 homers but somewhat surprising to me blasted 30 (exactly) only once...he also hit 137 triples in his career, leading the major leagues in that exciting play 3 times, including 1979 when he streaked for 20 and as we all know NO ONE has hit 20 or more triples two years in a row now for 88 years...george brett is in some massive HOF company joining only willie, hank and stan the man with over 3000 hits (his 3,154 remains the most ever by a third baseman), 300 homers and a career batting average of over .300.

    this trivia question is a toughie & an intriguing one imo...later today i will start giving clues...the first one will narrow it down and if i keep getting guesses will provide another, which just might nail it down for one or some of you.

    tom p

    "gawd! i love baseball!"
    --roy hobbs, The Natural by bernard malamud, 1952
     
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  19. Bases loaded, Nov 18, 2016

    Bases loaded

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    Tony Gwynn had 434 total strikeouts in his 20 year regular season career! 9288 at bats.

    This avergages out to 29 per 162 game season!

    Today's players strikeout 29 times in a couple of weeks now.
     
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  20. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Male
    I lived in San Diego during most of Tony's playing days there. Not only was he a great player, he was a gentleman, gracious, and was very involved in the community!
    .
    He was my stepson's hero. When I took my son to the photo and autograph day at the stadium, Tony spent several minutes signing his picture, and some cards Chase had brought with him, chatted with him for a moment...made a little boys day for sure!

    A great ball player, but more importantly, a great man.
     
    #40
    random_roller and TDVegas like this.