Is Craps beatable

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by zbest1966, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. zbest1966, Feb 19, 2019

    zbest1966

    zbest1966 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    I heard craps is not beatable, has anyone been bar from Craps, can you make living from it like cards counters. Do they have any professional craps players that make a living full time.
     
    #1
  2. twodicebilly, Feb 19, 2019

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,642
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Gender:
    Male
    zbest

    You came to the right place to ask that question.

    the guys on here will tell yo the game can not be beaten, it is
    100% random...save your money and save your energy and
    play bingo.

    Now I dont believe a single thing they say.....but you should

    TDB
     
    #2
    JL Vegas and Clay like this.
  3. zbest1966, Feb 19, 2019

    zbest1966

    zbest1966 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
  4. TDVegas, Feb 19, 2019

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Messages:
    16,734
    Likes Received:
    10,543
    Without trying to stir the hornets nest....

    If you believe the dice are not controllable...craps is not beatable, meaning the house edge cannot be overcome thru any strategic play. Winning a session or many sessions is certainly possible. Variance allows for this. That is not "beating" the game.
    For simply being too good and winning? I highly doubt it. Some have reported they have been barred for winning, but these are anecdotal reports without getting the casino side of the story. In other words...these are nothing more than personal acounts.

    People have been barred for evading the rules, being belligerent, argumentative, questioning the fairness of the dice, etc.
    No, I don't believe anyone can rely on the craps table for consistent, regular income....IOW's, a living.
    Playing? No, I don't think so. There are some that run dice influence schools. They might make a full time living from teaching, clinics, lesson and after glow fees.

    The casinos fully acknowledge blackjack card counters and will thwart (ban) their play thru legal means (short shuffles, use several decks, max bet limits) and outright tell them their play is no longer welcome.

    I know of no casino on record making the same statements about craps. On the contrary, they welcome all...dice setters and chuckers with equal relish.
     
    #4
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.
  5. twodicebilly, Feb 19, 2019

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,642
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Gender:
    Male
    zBEST

    You asked a reasonable question, and it deserves an answer.

    But it may not be the answer you are looking for. The question, is the game beatable and can you
    make a living playing it are two different answers.

    First can a player do better than the math of the game suggests...….absolutely!!!!!!

    Can you make a living playing it...????? well I have played the game for 40 years, taken
    many GTC classes, a couple of LJ classes and one other short thingy, I can use several
    shots fairly well

    I could not do that !!!

    Number one, I dont have the discipline to do it, number 2, I have made a very good living doing
    something else and when you have done that, you wont, atleast I wont risk that on something
    else.

    I dont think exact dice control is possible, to much changes everyday. But under good conditions
    a player can influence the outcome, some by shooting, I imagine there are guys that are smart enough
    and disciplined enough to do it in their betting patterns.

    I heard a guy say one time, that if you find something you really love or like to do, invest 10,000 hours working
    on it and get very very good.

    If you have the 10,000 hours...who knows ???

    TDB
     
    #5
  6. tabletop123, Feb 19, 2019

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,508
    Likes Received:
    5,433
    Yes there are Professional Craps players that make a living tossing dice.......JAMES THE FLAME HALL!!
     
    #6
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.
  7. BuckShot, Feb 19, 2019

    BuckShot

    BuckShot Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Niagara Falls, Ontario Canada
    Craps is NOT a beatable game. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

    YES > you can make money at craps almost every day. LEAVING IS THE HARDEST PART.
    NO > you can never play craps full time expecting to win win win in that time. THE LONGER YOU STAY THE MORE YOU WILL LOSE.
    YES > from a starting bank roll and some craps experience anyone can easily make $200-$300 per visit on a short term.

    Discipline is the most important aspect when playing craps. If you have a system, STICK TO IT and do not try to change the wheel to make it better.
     
    #7
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.
  8. TDVegas, Feb 19, 2019

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Messages:
    16,734
    Likes Received:
    10,543
    If you can "easily make" $200-$300 per visit....you can simply change the chip color and "easily make" $2,000-$3,000 per visit. Depending on how many casinos you can spread your action....it could be even more per visit.

    The ONLY sticking point is that it HAS to work for $200-$300. Then....simply change the chip color.
     
    #8
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.

  9. TR31

    TR31 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    59
    I can tell you Aruze Bubble Craps is beatable if you count Free Slot Play, mailers. welfare checks, etc. I know two people who are not affiliated with my team that make $30K per annum from bubble craps and when you add in Bonus Slots hustlings, which adds another $30K to $60K per annum, then each is up to almost $100K per annum. To be fair, these guys travel a lot so as to search for the best games. You can't be at small casinos or a local casino with one bubble machine because you would stand out. Even if these small places were unsophisticated against AP's, it won't take long to figure out something is wrong: Why aren't you losing 5% to 10% per coin-in. Once you run through $5K of coin-in and you break-even, these casinos will start to think you are a laundering "drug money".

    I know several card counters from bj21.com back when Stanford owned the site and they moved from live blackjack to live poker, video poker, etc. You can still make a good living off blackjack but you need to move into the non-traditional games such as Spanish 21, BJ Switch, etc. If I went back to blackjack today, I would hit the Down Under game since it favors the card counter. I knew several people who played Double Exposure BJ and Down Under is so similar DE BJ.
     
    #9
  10. von duck, Feb 20, 2019

    von duck

    von duck Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    9,545
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Gender:
    Male
    It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE what TDVegas believes. :confused: Nobody has conclusively proven anything one way or the other, period. It IS possible that some people might have enough control to win consistently. Who gives a rats ASS, what TD believes? Let's have a poll.
    1. YOU GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT TD, BELIEVES.
    2. YOU DO NOT GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT TD BELIEVES.
    PUT ME DOWN FOR # 2.
    LETS SETTLE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL.
     
    #10

  11. Liman

    Liman Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Messages:
    8,437
    Likes Received:
    7,414
    casinos are not charitable companys.

    they run solely for profits, and look for profits that approach the moon.

    does anyone win money at craps to make a living you ask? Im willing to bet there are a few out of millions and millions of craps players that are just lucky enough, without any skill involved, who just beat the odds. Like hitting powerball. Do you play it every day figuring you have a good shot to win? Or do you just have hopes and dreams and figure hey, 10 dollars a week on powerball isn't going to send me to the poor farm.

    take a look at the casinos staff, the medical insurance it has to pay, the liability insurance, just the free alcohol it doles out daily is mind staggering. Does anyone think they are about to have a game they think theres a chance of them losing money at?

    It takes 100 of millions to run a casino each year, they certainly aren't making money by offering games of chance where the results are uncertain.

    sure, youre going to have a bunch of internet posters here and elsewhere claiming their style, skill, betting prowess, etc.....makes them winners each year.

    this is the internet, believe what you want, but youll know after you play 10 times if its possible to make a living at it.

    good luck.

    most of the self claimed internet craps gurus/experts, have either ended up living out of their cars or crying about how the other gurus have fucked them over.

    like the commercials say, bet with your head not over it,

    you never know you may have a good streak.
     
    #11
  12. DeMango, Feb 20, 2019

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,476
    Likes Received:
    2,299
    Gender:
    Male
    That’s why we call him TwoDenseBilly!
     
    #12
    Mssthis1 likes this.
  13. DeMango, Feb 20, 2019

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,476
    Likes Received:
    2,299
    Gender:
    Male
    Just got done posting on WoV the other day that Vince hasn’t been on the boards for awhile and BAM! Here you are!
     
    #13
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.
  14. Mssthis1, Feb 20, 2019

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    2,751
    Likes Received:
    4,234
    There's lots of easier ways to make money.

    Look at Archie Karas. He was up around 17 million if I recall correctly. Now he's making license plates or is on parole. I can't remember for sure.

    If he'd of took that money and put it in farmland at what land was selling for back then, he'd be getting 3.5 mil a year in income off the ground today.

    There's lots of easier ways to make money.......................................... .
     
    #14
    yacraps and KokomoJoe4 like this.
  15. basicstrategy777, Feb 20, 2019

    basicstrategy777

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    9,226
    Likes Received:
    8,422
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT.
    Sure its beatable.....I would like to see some IRS tax returns where it says profession ....craps player....

    Ultimately, and in the final analysis, it all comes down to this:...Mr. Callahan is the casino...the craps player is the man on the ground.



    777
     
    #15
  16. TDVegas, Feb 20, 2019

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Messages:
    16,734
    Likes Received:
    10,543
    Is this the the same guy on the Wov forum that was asking someone to put up $5,000 in some half assed "your money, we gamble, split profit" deal....?

    The karaoke singer?
     
    #16
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  17. KokomoJoe4, Feb 20, 2019

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    4,527
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA
    You have either not heard correctly, or you have not heard from the proper perspective.

    Yes, people make a living from craps.

    Yes, there are a handful of players who have won millions playing craps to go millions into the black. I have not heard of any of this handful who managed to hold onto their winnings.

    The people who make money at craps are the people who run the craps game - the owners of the games and their employees. It's similar to the situation where Tony took over David Scatino's Sporting Goods Store when $75 Dave couldn't come with either his payments or vig.

    T told David that sort of work is his "bread and butter", that is, being on the "right" side of gambling. The poor SOB was sleeping in a tent on the floor of the store before being evicted. Our buddy Richie Aprile was none too happy with $75 Dave either. Wasn't Richie buried on a hill overlooking the river?
     
    #17
    yacraps likes this.
  18. von duck, Feb 20, 2019

    von duck

    von duck Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    9,545
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Gender:
    Male
    We do not know for sure, if dice control is possible, but all of us have an opinion about it. It is not possible to disprove, dice control. You can apply whatever logic you choose, but you will not be able to disprove it, ever. :cool:
     
    #18
    James Hall likes this.
  19. twodicebilly, Feb 20, 2019

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,642
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Von Duck

    Sometimes when it is said correctly it makes more sense....you said it pretty well.

    It was mind boggling the other day when TDV tri to apply the chi squared to apply
    the chi squared test to show influence on a set of numbers that had only a goal
    of determining if one set of numbers was different than another.


    Now Von the expert TDV consulted indicated this...…..Sorry, I do not classify different results due to normal variance half the time as significant....

    I could not stop laughing for 10 minutes when I read this...……..different results due to variance (half the time) ???????

    When you provide two sets of data, to show difference between the results of one set as compared to another.....you would
    expect them to be different …….HALF OF THE TIME.

    Even worse if and I say if you wanted to show influence over say even 152 rolls, you would continue to use the set that
    provided for 7 sevens over 72 rolls rather than 10, , 14 fives, and 11 tens .

    the point of the test was to be different...………………..half the time.

    Von Duck, no wonder these guys cant win so they spend their time on here challenging the ideas of
    others.....when I get on here and see that what I think is different than several of these guys, it
    makes my day.

    TDB
     
    #19
  20. KokomoJoe4, Feb 20, 2019

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    4,527
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA
    The fact that there is no long line of wealthy, otherwise unemployed craps experts out there goes a long way for me proving that dice control ain't happening. To each his own on the matter, and who gives a shit?
     
    #20
    yacraps and Mssthis1 like this.