If there were no back wall

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by JGreen6918, May 25, 2012.

  1. JGreen6918, May 25, 2012

    JGreen6918

    JGreen6918 Member

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    I don't personally have a throwing station or landing station yet (if that's what it's even called). I have other means of simulating a craps table, but I do not have the back wall. I figure that I can still analyze aspects of my throw before the dice hit the back wall. My question is this: if there were no back wall on a craps table, should my attempts at DI look like backspin and then forward spin, and NOT have any side spin at all? By side spin I mean the way the earth spins, for example.

    I imagine the successful DI throw without a back wall would have dice having backspin in the air, making contact with the table, and rolling forward until they come to a stop. The dice should also travel the same distance once they have come to a stop, right? This also means that if I start with the hardway set and have the 6s and 1s on the sides, that they should still be on the same sides when the dice stop, yes?

    Has anybody ever tried this to see if their throw is like this?
     
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  2. Southern-Comfort, May 25, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    In a perfect throw in a perfect world, yes all the rolls should end with the 6/1 outside. As we all know, the world is not perfect, and perfection of a roll is relative and variable, hence the sets we choose to minimize the number we shall not name the way our rolls with less perfection than others will tend to land on. (deep breath)
    Anyway, it sounds like you have the right idea and are on the right track, if you can make that happen more than average (44.44% of the time) consistantly, you are accomplishing step one. You have already beat random/
    Now, others, even among dice influencers, will disagree with me on this, but the backwall isn't as big a physical problem as it is a mental one, so ignore its impact (it does have some sometimers, but not big).
     
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  3. JGreen6918, May 25, 2012

    JGreen6918

    JGreen6918 Member

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    Well, I have no choice but to ignore the back wall for now. I'm trying to take it one step at a time which first involves making sure both dice leave my hand the same way and each die reacts off of the first bounce the same way. I'll try to figure out the back wall later hopefully.

    I hate to bring up the GTC videos again, but I see Dominator's throws and the dice hit the wall straight on but then bounce off at an angle. This tells me that the dice are being pushed to the side a bit. And if they are being pushed to the side, that means there is some side spin on them. And if there is side spin mixed with forward or back spin, that is pretty much a random throw. You can even see the dice spinning a bit in the GTC videos before they come to a stop. And the 6-1 are definitely not on the "outside" as you put it, nor do they have the same orientation on both dice. I know it sounds like I'm discrediting the GTC videos a lot, but I don't mean to. I'm just trying to understand what's supposed to happen and how to distinguish successful individual DI throws from random ones.

    Personally, I'd like to see Dominator's throws if the back wall were flat. No pyramids, but the same rubbery surface. I'd assume that if he is really that good, you would not see side spin very often.
     
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  4. Southern-Comfort, May 25, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Yes the dice may turn and bounce back on the same axis but at an angle, but since the pyramids are. interestingly, exactly the same size and shape as the dice, generally what happens with one will happen with both. Or, often, one will stay on axis but one may be "influenced" by a pyramid to go off, but thats what happens anyway, so its really not changing anything.
    And don;'t worry about sounding like you're discrediting GTC. They are pretty much the walmart (in quality, not price) of the craps world.
     
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  5. DeMango, May 25, 2012

    DeMango

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    Back in the stone age of DI, on axis and back wall prevention was the be all and end all.
    But the Emperor has no clothes on the little boy yelled. (Stanford Wong)
    On axis is ok but the real answers are correlation and the back wall is highly overrated.
    Low slow and easy says The Mad Professor.

    Why is my spill checker not working?
     
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  6. JGreen6918, May 26, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    I'm afraid I have to question these comments. In my previous thread we established that a separation of the dice is pretty much unavoidable. Since that is the case, a die has a chance to deflect to the left as much as it has a chance to deflect to the right. And we don't know how much it will deflect in each direction because we don't know how each die will contact the tips of the pyramids.
     
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  7. Southern-Comfort, May 26, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    I understand the confusion. However, since you should be throwing in a manner that the dice hit the backwall straight on, you are minimizing any altering effect from the pyramids. Doesn't matter if the dice go left or right as long as they are staying on axis. And actually, its not the end of the world if they do get off axis. What you are really attempting to accomplish is minimizing sevens (or maximising them if you are a darksider), and its easier if you worry about double pitches rather than going off axis about half the time.
     
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  8. $nakeEye$, May 26, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    If I may add my 2 cents worth in this discussion -

    1st off - the back wall can NOT be ignored - it is a fact of craps life that the " dice must strike the back wall in order for the throw to be considered a legal throw " -

    2nd - with the above statement first and foremost in our minds - where - in ANY gaming rules / statutes / ordinances / whatever - does it say that the dice must strike the " pyramids " of the back wall -

    3rd - IT DOES NOT -

    4th - " The dice must " strike " the back wall - IF and WHEN the dice " run up to and lightly touch " the base rubber of the back wall - WAS or WAS NOT the requirement of #1 satisfied ?

    5th - The correct answer to #4 above is a resounding " YES " - the dice struck the back wall - possibly as NOT to the satisfaction of the casinos - BUT the dice satisfied that requirement -

    6th - NO WHERE does any rule make mention that the dice must strike the pyramid area of the back wall rubber -

    7th - When you know the " law / rule " then you know how how far you can either push the envelope OR not be intimidated by the casino !
     
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  9. JGreen6918, May 26, 2012

    JGreen6918

    JGreen6918 Member

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    I completely agree that if the dice touch the bottom of the wall that the "rule" is technically satisfied. But I would think that if the dice could still be influenced by hitting the pyramids, then this activity would be less likely to come under scrutiny by the casino. I feel that even though I am making contact with the back wall, repeated throws like this will prompt the casino to ask me to throw a bit harder. And really, I am in no position to deny this request. What am I going to say? "Hey I'm trying to control the dice here, and I'm following all of your rules"? No.

    But I'm not at the point of taking on the back wall just yet. We'll see what happens when I can get my release somewhat perfected.
     
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  10. Southern-Comfort, May 27, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    As I said, the effect is more mental than physical. as long as your mind tells you its an obstacle, its going to be one. Ever learned to juggle? Same situation, once your mind accepts that it can deal with three balls and two hands, its no longer impossible. Just open your mind about the backwall and watch what the dice do instead of just accept what you're supposed to believe.
    I can ignore the effects of the backwall, and I do. Just toss straight along the rail and you have more control over the backwall than you do over the dice.
     
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  11. $nakeEye$, May 27, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    #1 - Regards the response as to hit the " Back wall harder " - I would exercise my right to remain silent - BUT - in my mind I would respond " F*ck You " - my " response would be , has been and will continue to be TOTAL DISREGARD of this ludicrous and illegal comment " - it is not even worth a look at the idiot ( be it the boxman /stick person ) who is espousing this - THIS is exactly where the $1 tip ON TOP OF YOUR WAGERS comes into play - money talks - bullshit walks -

    THEY are trying to get YOU off your game - IGNORE THEM and they will GO AWAY - if you allow them to play into their hand OR let them get inside YOUR head - YOU are screwed - you are no longer in control -

    The advantage that we may posses is minute - BUT - in a negative expectation game - WE do indeed possess an advantage - and must use same to our benefit at all times -

    The age old adage states - " It's mind over matter - IF you don't mind - it doesn't matter " - Do not allow ANYONE to attempt to get you off your game / regimen -

    #2 - Immediately , if not sooner , purchase and install the diamond back pyramid rubber material on your receiving station - as S-C stated - IT is not your enemy - NOR - is it your friend - endeavour to roll the dice up to the lower sloped bottom of the rubber - endeavour to land the dice in an area that you will perform a " legal " throw - but avoid the chaos that the diamond shaped pyramids will exhibit on the dice when they strike same - NO MATTER HOW SOFTLY THEY STRIKE THEM !
     
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  12. $nakeEye$, May 27, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    If I'm not mistaken - the L,S &E toss is indicitave of the UH throw = NOT the PARR/GTC/OH style toss ?
     
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  13. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, May 27, 2012

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    Shorting the back wall is my game.......hahah
     
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  14. DeMango, May 27, 2012

    DeMango

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    Either way I asume. But MP is mainly throwing UH these days.
     
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  15. $nakeEye$, May 27, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    I do not intentionally attempt to " short the back wall " - I only attempt to minimize its' detrimantal effect on the outcome of my throw -

    I try and do this by running the dice up to the lower edge of the pyramid rubber -

    I have yet to be chastised for this - and I play regularly in AC and the Poconos -

    Matter of last week at an AC casino - I asked the boxman to have a player at the other end of the table have their bet moved - the bet was placed smack in the middle of my landing zone - also there were designated fire-bet spots on the lay-out -

    I said to the boxman - " I am required to hit the back wall with the dice - how can I do that with her bet and odds bets right in my way " - he looked at me for a second - went to the other end of the table - and instructed the other player to move her bet to the side - in line with the fire-bet circle !
     
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  16. JGreen6918, May 28, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    I had the pleasure of playing on a craps table tonight at a casino themed party. The table was a bit shorter in length than what I was used to, but it was otherwise pretty authentic. I attempted to short the wall to see how my dice were rolling, to see if they were staying on axis. Well let me tell you this, it's just about impossible to prevent the dice from tumbling sideways. Even if the dice hit perfectly flush on the table, the first bounce always tilts the dice ever so slightly. After that, a corner catches the felt and it's all pretty random from there. So I don't see shorting the wall, or even having them stop at the base of the wall as a working possibility. All of you lucky enough to have tables at home should try this. You'll see what I mean. Using the hardway set, I don't think you'll end up with the 6s and 1s on the sides the way they started very often.

    Expanding on this, I believe that means I will be hoping that the back wall actually helps the DI attempt instead of hurting it. So far, I do not see it as possible that the dice will stay on axis after the first bounce. I'll keep trying, though. I'm still hoping for the correlation thing to be the key, I guess.
     
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  17. JGreen6918, May 28, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    After examining the pyramids, I found this statement about the size and shape to be false. Yes, the dice fit in between these pyramids, as any object with a 90 degree angle would. But they are definitely not the same shape as the dice. The pyramids are four sided, and you cannot make a four sided pyramid with a die.

    I'm not sure what any of that means, but I just wanted to point out that they're not the same shape.
     
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  18. Southern-Comfort, May 28, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Funny, they are exactly the same on my craps table, and on every other one I've nested dice into the pyramids at casinos. Try trolling elsewhere please.
     
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  19. JGreen6918, May 28, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    Now you're calling me a troll? Nice.

    As you look down onto a point on the pyramid, you can see 4 sides. Now tell me how you can look down the point of a die and see the same number of sides. You can't. They're not the same shape.

    Yes, you can put dice between the flat sides of the pyramids because the spaces there are 90 degrees like the dice. I could also put a Lego block in there. But that does not mean they are the same shape.

    I guess you're just another one who finds anyone that disagrees with you to be a pain. If you guys are any indication of what the DI community is like, then I don't want to be a part of it.
     
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  20. Southern-Comfort, May 28, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    You are correct about the pyramids showing 4 sides, so I was incorrect in my statement that they are the same shape. However, that changes nothing about the fit and interraction of the dice with the backwall. You experience and my experience are aopprently different. Fear the backwall if it makes you feel better about the bad throws. They are an easy excuse to not work of technique. I encourage you to do more than just conclude something because its easier to just concluse. I encourage you, yoyrself, to just ignore any further statements I may say about the backwall, enjoy the darkness.
     
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