HOW can you be a DICE PLAYER and remain IGNORANT of the GAME?

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by SevenOut, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. TDVegas, Sep 1, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    My addition...while telling someone how to bet tends to evoke some lively discussion, I do think having 6 separate wagers exposed to a single 7 out and all wiped from the table is not something I would suggest for a regular player, frequent player.

    The guys I watch playing all across (REGULARLY and frequent players) are getting crushed by year's end P/L statement.

    However....

    The guy flying into Vegas who wants action when he gambles and the potential for a big score...I might say go for it. There's a small window for that bet to work wonders...you just might be that guy flying in on Sept. 2, at the table from 9:30pm to 9:50pm. Bam. Nice, big win.

    Keep going to that well, night after night after night after day?

    Careful.
     
    #261
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  2. SevenOut, Sep 1, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    TDV brings up a couple examples of Players lack of understanding there are better options to taking on more HA than they need.

    Out of Towners (BEFORE National Casinos everywhere): I know, when I had the Casino/Room package for Thursday to Sunday in the early 1980's. I could lose $1200 to $1800 and not want to return, for another year of getting my ignorant butt kicked again.

    Now, outside Boulder City, a Casino seems to be on every street corner, there is no urgency to play.

    I did not understand Craps Odds. A 4 was half of an 8. I did not know a System. I had cash to burn, and I did. I did not want to be tracked, so never signed up for a Casino Card. (That was dumb... of course.)

    After reading Scarne's books, I was the stupid player with cash.

    That changed when I began to understand Craps as a Player. Then two years as a Teacher and Dealer Instructor of Craps, before Missouri Riverboat Gaming. Playing was not that important to me or my Dealers. Player's Behaviors and Game became important. Not actually... playing, ourselves. Although if we had an extra Dealer, he would pull $200 of chips out of the Bank and play with those at the Table.

    When YOU are the Casino... it did not take me long to figure out, which side was the best to be standing. Some evenings we would be hit hard. Not by LOW HA wagers but a $25 chip on a 30 for 1 payout. It took some time to get that back into our Bank, but we did.

    There are people who have so much wealth, they will not miss a couple thousand or more. Winning is important, but it is the ATTEMPT to WIN that draws them. They like the Casino Room Comps, meals, restaurant credits and 'free stuff' that makes it worth their while.

    For us... we pay our way. Take advantage of any and all perks that are of some value to us. I do not need a free magnifying glass, or a wine bottle carrier, or some plastic gimmicks.

    We all have our wants. The Casino will fulfill any if you... rate your play high enough, which we do not. We sold Slot Machines. We dealt the Tables. The nostalgia of being a player... is not there. Dealing... if I owned the business.

    - I burned out on Classic Hot Rods back in the late 70's, before they became classics.

    - I burned out on expecting to beat the Casino in the 80's, when we ran a 'Gaming School'.

    - Anyone may want to debate that they make 'Bank' gambling. Great. Open a School and get actual money to deposit in an account.

    Myself. I can take it or leave it. I have other interests to keep me busy.
     
    #262
  3. James Hall, Sep 1, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    There is one thing that seems to get omitted
    when some people judge the strategy for a given player.
    The factors seem to be risk level , desire , bankroll
    several other things but what is eliminated is the
    single most important factor of all , it is eliminated
    simply because some will not acknowledge it's existence.

    Not one single strategy should be considered if
    it does not meet up to the SKILL LEVEL possessed by
    the player.
    Many players devoid of any SKILL whatsoever
    are playing strategies that cannot work for them
    many times using a different strategy can make
    one hell of a difference .

    Sometimes a player with some skill might do better
    with a more aggressive strategy and of course the
    opposite is also just as true. Many times
    people simply play the wrong game / a strategy
    that does not meet their level of skill / expertise
    Contrary to the opinions some might express
    the right game has little or nothing to do with
    whether or not you play all across it simply has to
    do with one thing , a thing I have expressed
    many times on this forum
    "Matching your betting strategy to your skill
    level / betting the numbers your toss provides
    "BETTING WHAT THE DICE ARE GIVING YOU"
    Do that , PLAY THE RIGHT GAME,
    You will be far more successful.
     
    #263
  4. TDVegas, Sep 1, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    These things happen...for myself, instead of taking that $25 and putting it on box cars for 30-1 on one single roll....I'll run it thru a slot machine and take my chances there. Maybe hit a bonus round, minor progressive. At 15% house edge on both....I would be on a slot machine instead. At $1-$2 per spin....I'd rather have 12-25 shots at something rather than 1.
     
    #264
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  5. TDVegas, Sep 1, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I'm addressing the 90-95% of people here who likely consider the dice random. You are addressing the 5-10% (if that) here who consider dice control viable.

    My strategic offerings would be for the 95%. Yours would be for the 5%.

    The only issue is I cannot offer a strategy for the 5% because I don't know what they are capable of doing with the dice. You, on the other hand want to offer a strategy to the 95% who don't fit the mold of dice controller....

    The 95% aren't going to practice because they aren't going to go and buy a table, have it occupy a living room. Your advice to them is quit craps. All well and fine...but they aren't going to quit. So, they might want to know of a strategy that offers options suited to them.
     
    #265
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  6. James Hall, Sep 1, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    There , were , are and always be people
    of different levels of ambition. As an athlete growing up
    I found that to be a constant problem . The guys I tried
    to surround my self with while growing up and beyond
    were those for whom winning was the most important factor.
    I was on teams with guys who would say

    "It's not whether you win or lose . it's how you play the game"
    I hated that then , I hate it now. I was always there to win.

    My freshman year in high school one of the coaches before
    we would go to the field , would say
    "OK guys go out there and have fun"

    Parker and I would get the team psyched up and all
    hollering in a chant , "WIN , WIN ,WIN .
    You mentioned the 95% and the %5 that stands true
    in life itself , 95% of the population work and pay taxes
    5% are successful and employ 95%.
    In all things I prefer to be among the 5% , "THE WINNERS"
    What I found in sports and in life being among the 5%
    is more favorable and actually doesn't take that much
    more effort.
    The only real differences between the two is a matter of
    what they consider. A large percentage of those who
    CONSIDER the dice random have spent zero time
    exploring the possibilities , they are making arbitrary
    decisions based on no facts , just on "OPINIONS"
    they hear or read by other people who have formed
    opinions in much the same way , opinions , no facts

    Other people have sought information , done some
    research and failed without ever giving themselves
    a chance.

    Even others have made the effort to learn , some
    succeed some have not.

    Another model where this situation is played out is
    in business. Every year sees many new businesses
    starting up , most are destined to fail 95% or more.
    Many of those business owner fail because they
    lack the knowledge to succeed , they go in
    unprepared , under capitalized.

    Craps players who spend time learning and practicing
    tend to do better than those who don't


    The people who do the most learning and practicing
    tend to do better at ALMOST ANYTHING than
    people who spend no time at all in either of those pursuits.

    I tend to lump people into one of two categories
    1) the people for whom winning is all important
    2) the people for whom the most important thing
    is have to fun.

    I always did this for one very important reason.
    I found that people who really didn't care whether
    they won or lost were poorly motivated , they had
    a negative mental attitude and they have a negative
    affect on other people , I avoid them.
    I would say that is pretty much exactly right.
    You posted a response to me a year or so ago in which
    you said , "The majority on this forum agree with me"
    You were right then and you are right now.

    I am not overly concerned with that 95% I
    prefer to spend my time with the 5% the ones who
    want to win and will spend the time
    to get there.
    Exactly and that is what is essential , build
    or develop a strategy around your dice outcomes in other
    words , "BET WHAT YOUR DICE ARE GIVING YOU".
    No , not at all , offering a STRATEGY for them
    is just as impossible as you trying to help
    a skilled tosser on strategies to help him maximize
    his wins.
    Where the disconnect comes in is in the fact
    that you seem to be forwarding the opinion
    that nobody can ever have any influence on the dice

    What I have offered is an option whereby a person
    does not have to sit back and accept whatever
    happens as tho that is all there is available ,
    I am suggesting another alternative in my
    experience a better option where you can
    enhance the opportunity to win on a more consistent
    basis rather than simply tossing and hoping for the best.
    A situation where they might be able
    to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN.
    There were two alternatives that I encourage people to look at
    Learn to win is the first , that entails two things
    Learning is the first
    Some of the guys I work with have bought tables because
    they began to feeel guilty coming to my living room
    to practice . My table has always been available
    to them free of charge and always will be
     
    #266
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  7. twodicebilly, Sep 1, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    James


    I hate to say this, but were are having some affect on TDV
    he is starting to see the light...…

    Imagine if had said this 2 years ago??????


    I'm addressing the 90-95% of people here who likely consider the dice random. You are addressing the 5-10% (if that) here who consider dice control viable.

    My strategic offerings would be for the 95%. Yours would be for the 5%.

    The only issue is I cannot offer a strategy for the 5% because I don't know what they are capable of doing with the dice. You, on the other hand want to offer a strategy to the 95% who don't fit the mold of dice controller....

    The 95% aren't going to practice because they aren't going to go and buy a table, have it occupy a living room. Your advice to them is quit craps. All well and fine...but they aren't going to quit. So, they might want to know of a strategy that offers options suited to them.


    that is a reasonable post...…

    tdb
     
    #267
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  8. SevenOut, Sep 1, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    The percentages are off when 95% and 5% are tossed around.

    I would agree that the 5% of the Craps Population are in the Field of DI. Some Craps Dealers, as well. Those who gamble at a Casino other than where they work, are not just glaze eyed and rotate off the table. They are watching... very closely to what kind of action works and what does not.

    This Forum, among the 95% should be separated out.

    Similar players as on the Forum may represent, possibly 30% of the Craps Population. They understand Craps. They can debate Craps. They understand Bankroll and System pairing up. ... and when to walk.

    There is an easy 40% who should not even leave home unescorted to prevent them from playing Craps. They never will understand what is going on. These are the Bread and Butter easy money for the Craps Table. They are under Bankrolled and find the Field full of numbers and tossing chips into the center of the table on One Roll long shots. Sometimes they find success. More often, not.

    When someone on the Forum can talk:

    - Strategy
    - Wager options
    - How to take on high HA wagers by using Low HA wagers
    - Can coherently discuss adversarial critics of their Craps Game, without malice, this is when the point or points can be understood
    - Bankroll, Money Management and changing Bankroll means changing Wagering Options

    I find James Hall and TDB put some gems out on the Forum for some to polish them up for their own use. TDV tossed out his opinion(s) and they are his to discuss, and for you to debate the merits.

    Craps is not a 401K or an Investment for Retirement. If Casinos were not doing well, they would not be building more.
     
    #268
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  9. James Hall, Sep 1, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    Anybody who has ever called wanting information on what
    we do is always met with an invitation to come here and I will spend as much time as they want to see what we do and why.
    As I have stated before , I have had people come from
    several different states .
    Some of those pe
    I think that some on this forum do not realize
    there are actually three options available to players
    and what some of us are suggesting is that they
    take an open minded view of all the possibilities .
    options:
    1) learn to win

    2) if you are not going to learn
    stop playing and save the money for more important needs

    3 Continue what you are doing with the reality
    of what expectation has to offer. If you up
    to this point expect that to be your reality
    you will continue to lose until you make
    some change in your game.
     
    #269
  10. HornHiYo, Sep 1, 2018

    HornHiYo

    HornHiYo Member

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    There are a number of people who have some really good ideas relative to winning at craps that they will not share simply because they do not want to subject themselves to ridicule for doing so
    because the "PUSH BACK" for offering these tips is swift and brutal. Guys like you and AssHall will be heaving verbal vomit all over them telling them how superior tho art and they should learn to win or quit like you or AssHall. If we could get that to stop there there would be an awful lot we all could learn.
    You know the bullshit drill as well as anyone:
    1. Read the table
    2. Read Biased dice
    3. Take what the table is giving
    4. No. Make that take what the dice are giving
    5. Bet on the numbers that are (have) been rolling
    6. Bet across
    7. Get a seven run
    8. Throw dice only as AssHall throws dice. Nothing else will work. LTWOQ!!

    Aside from 8, what is there that can't be found in most Craps books, Craps websites and dice control schools? You two are a couple brain dead zombies that simply parrot craps ill advice you heard from someone else. There is not an original thought between you. You pay money to con men. Learn more crap about craps. Try it. Lose. Rinse and repeat. Oh you're such a hero!

    You are right. You two never hear. That's because you are so intent on delivering your load of bullshit that you don't listen beyond the walls of the Short Bus. The best nugget you'll find on this site is this: "Everything AssHall says is pure bullshit". There you have some of the best wisest advice to be found anywhere.

    Now let me ask you this. When you meet your random tossing buddies at the HoChunk in Baraboo and they win while you lose, do you tell them how much you know? How much you practice? Do you tell them how to throw and bet???
    When you win and they lose, do you tell them how superior you are??????

    I didn't think so.
     
    #270
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  11. superrick, Sep 1, 2018

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    NICE SUPERRICK here!

    After having a long talk with my wife and her reading some of the things that the big man TDV writes she opened my eyes to the great bubble craps player TDV! After all, you can't win all of the time and playing craps is just for your entertainment!

    So all of you so-called DI's should just give up and start playing the bubble craps machine. We, all should talk the pro-bubble craps player into giving us free bubble craps lessons. We can invite Lid to be our official photographer for the free classes!
    It looks like the casinos are going to be going to the bubble craps machine anyway, so why not join forces with TDV because he is on the forefront of the bubble craps craze where you can sit in the cool air condition casinos here in Vegas and play for hours on end and walk away with $5 profit.

    Now, come on guys we all need to know the betting strategies that he is using to keep from going broke from playing the bubble craps machines.

    We all know that the math of the game tells you that you are going to lose so why not get the real expert on this forum to tell all of us how he does it!
    I just hope that we don't have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, after all, we will all be playing for our entertainment! I can afford to lose $10 a week and I know that the great TDV has a master strategy for playing the bubble craps machine.

    I proposed that he comes up with a date for the great BubbleFEST so we can all plan to be in Vegas when it happens!
    He should also have a bubble shooter challenge to see who can get the luckiest when it's their turn to push the button!

    Everyone knows that the bubble machines are totally random and that the only way you're are going to win is by taking TDV class!
    I must admit that I've been totally wrong about TDV, and I want to thank my wife for opening my eyes to that fact.

    I can't wait to see the dates he posts to make sure that I'm in Vegas and not out cruising on my yacht in Fla.

    So from now on, you are only going to have the Nice SuperRick posting. I've seen the light brothers and sisters in the craps playing world!
     
    #271
  12. HornHiYo, Sep 1, 2018

    HornHiYo

    HornHiYo Member

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    Being an arrogant bully is not synonymous with being a a nice guy. But then you know that.
     
    #272
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  13. James Hall, Sep 1, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    I read your post with all your name calling , the Asshall BS
    and all that and marveled at how genuinely angry you are.
    For many months I tried to figure out why you could be so angry
    and I have it all figured out. It's not so much that you are angry
    I have a pretty good idea that most of your life you
    have lived in the shadow of people more qualified
    at almost everything than you have been. Other people
    and especially those who have had significant successes
    in their lives are a constant reminder of just how significant
    you are , then you get on here and make it worse by
    posting posts that line out just how clueless you
    are about craps as well . I don't get angry when
    you do your little 3rd grad AssHall thing. I have heard all
    that before but never after 3rd grade.
    Learn a little bit about craps and you won't have these
    overpowering feelings of insignificance.
    I feel a tremendous sympathy for you . TDV
    likes what you are doing .
    Till further notice if I respond to you or bring you
    up in a post , you will be , the ,"HineyHole"
    you like name calling so much now you have one
     
    #273
  14. superrick, Sep 1, 2018

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    HoornHiYom, NiceSuperRick here, you know that you are absolutely right how could I be so arrogant! By the way, do you play the bubble craps machines? TDV, might need one more instructor for the betting session that he will be putting on. With your vast knowledge on the subject, we will all be at all with your vast knowledge on how you bet the game of craps hoping to just get lucky and win $5.
     
    #274
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  15. James Hall, Sep 1, 2018

    James Hall

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    There are basically two trains of thought on this forum.
    One thought / opinion is that craps is a random
    negative expectation /outcome game.

    the other group feels that there is some influence
    that can be brought to bear on the game allowing
    those who posses this influence to win at a more
    consistent rate.

    One group plays with the expectation that the math
    is going to dictate the outcomes and no one is
    going to win in the long run. They play expecting
    one outcome but hoping for something better .

    The other group , the group that feels they
    can influence to some degree the outcomes ,
    work , learn and practice TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN,
    While the first group , the group THAT HOPES something good
    will happen are at the craps table hoping that
    someone from the other group comes along
    and makes things happen so they too can win.

    Now the hard part , choosing which group you
    want to be in , "The One Group" , "the hopers" or

    "The Other Group" the , "Influence Group"
    the group that makes things happen.

    It's a quandary alright
     
    #275
  16. twodicebilly, Sep 2, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    James


    Just a note, when I indicated in a post the other day the dice control is bs, I was
    talking about the type of dice control the 95% insist is required to show any
    influence at all.

    To me control means I want to throw and 8 so I do, I want to throw 2 hard 4's in
    a row and I do, every time, you say you have an SRR of 8 and you have that at a minimum
    every hand.

    that is the dice control that I feel is not possible

    Taking full advantage of what ever influence you can add to the dice is is not that.

    As far as deciding which group you want to be in...that is easy ,what is hard is telling
    yourself you made the right decision as you go through the many hours of practice
    not always showing the results you want.

    tdb
     
    #276
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  17. James Hall, Sep 2, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    I look at it this way ,
    people who practice DI gain some , "DEGREE of CONTROL." With training and a lot of practice
    they experience different degrees of success.
    It goes without saying , the ones who expend the
    greatest amount of effort will normally realize
    a greater degree of return in success / control.

    The naysayers , in their constant effort to diminish
    what we are about attack words such as , "CONTROL"
    with statements like , "nobody can CONTROL"
    the dice , as if . we are saying we have
    ABSOLUTE CONTROL , which is not our intent
    but by handling their objection in this manner
    it leads others to believe that what we are saying
    is untrue. Their intent in this regard IS false
    and very Disingenuous.
    Back many years ago when I was learning
    what many on this board call DI ,
    SYDNEY use to refer to this process as ,
    "MANIPULATION"
    He would say ,
    "If you arrange the dice in this manner you
    can , many times , manipulate the outcomes
    JUST ENOUGH to win"
    Then he would talk about the physics of the throw.
    He was an engineer so he talked a lot about
    the velocity and arc.
    What we are about is
    how we arrange the dice then we CONTROL
    how we throw them , we CONTROL the arc , we
    CONTROL the velocity and we CONTROL
    where they touch down on the table.
    All these factors of CONTROL have SOME determining affects
    on the final outcome which simply means that
    with training and practice
    We can EXPECT a far greater number of desired
    outcomes than the random player.
    Therefore with the degree of CONTROL that we
    exert on the dice we can EXPECT better results.
     
    #277
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  18. Mssthis1, Sep 2, 2018

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    Since Rick loves to make video's and post them why don't any of you 5% ers have him shoot some some slo mo videos and post them to impress the 95%?

    All I ask is that it's a legal casino toss. No hands in the prop box and it hits the back wall enough to avoid heat at any casino.
     
    #278
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  19. superrick, Sep 2, 2018

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Nice SuperRick here, Oh, I can't do that because DeMango will be upset and my wife has told me to be nice to everybody. I know that he would freak out seeing those dice dancing down the table as they flip and turn every which way they can!

    You should know that the slow-motion videos of what the dice really do can be very upsetting to some that post on these boards!
     
    #279
  20. HornHiYo, Sep 2, 2018

    HornHiYo

    HornHiYo Member

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    Piling your bullshit higher doesn’t make it any less bullshit.
    It is what it is. You are what you are.
    How ‘bout You make today “pile it high day” and see just jow much you can cramb into one long post. Go for the bs per post record. Ready, set, get typying AssHall.
     
    #280
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
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