HOW can you be a DICE PLAYER and remain IGNORANT of the GAME?

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by SevenOut, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. SevenOut, Jul 22, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    I find it very difficult to understand why there are so many Craps Players on this Forum that have no clue, no knowledge and no mathematical understanding of Craps. Some of the current Topics posted for discussion do not even merit responses by experienced Craps players, whom I find are also in a limited supply on this Forum. These Craps Players then go to a Casino and make wagers... It defies logic or rational behavior.

    I fear that going to other games would be equally disturbing. I will not even browse as it does not matter to me, any more.

    The Forum has an unusual number of Dice Hustlers, Dice Cheats or Dice Control sponsors, whose skills cannot be readily proven nor would be tolerated at a Casino. If we were at a "friendly home game of Craps" Dice sleight of hand shooters would out number the honest players from what I have read on this Forum. Do not confuse Dice Cheats with Card Cheats... as Card Cheats... CAN use sleight of hand to consistently win any time they want. Dice Control cannot say the same, unless you want to pay to discover that you are a chump. A cheating method loses its value when the number of cheaters increases... The Casino is well aware there are players trying to get the upper hand against the House. But, do it with knowledge, not attempting to control what cannot.

    I have mentioned a number of times the John Scarne, Scarne on Dice. The illustrations are old. The Dice Control holds, which there are a number described and their history, are old. The stories are old. But, the not so are the mathematics and YOUR being able to benefit from this ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE are the basic facts needed by any and all Craps players. New or experienced.

    Would it be better that a newbie asks a question without logic or resemblance to a smart Craps player and the answer is explained WHY the thought is in contradiction to the true facts. Then the Craps Forum creates knowledge and not rumor, nor gossip truths that are nonexistent or totally misinterpreted? John Scarne wrote Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling which can be purchased, used for under $5.00 on the internet. That will get you a good basic understanding of Casino gambling and the caveats. Skip that volume and study Scarne on Dice. If you read that volume of 434 pages... I would have reason to believe you now have enough knowledge learned to debate and argue points on this Forum.

    Craps Degenerates are the WORST to deliver the truth. Charlatans abound. I have become totally disgusted. It need not be that this Forum is corrupted by some of the worst advice in print, I say some as there are some on this Forum who do dispense accurate and worthy information. I have yet to encounter ONE reader of Scarne on Dice. It has been in print for over 68 years and counting. Is it that big of a secret? Or... if the truth be known, would some of these pure frauds making numerous posts be exposed... YOU CHOSE.

    I am packing up my dice, my layout and will sit out further discussions on the Forum, until One, or maybe TWO members that CAN make comments on the Forum having read and have a better understanding of the "real history" of Dice, Hazard, Craps or Ramala Pasa... or throwing a few Astragalus into the dirt from just one book. It is all wrapped up for you in one book to begin your journey. Do not take my word for it, find a copy at the library, read it and then make your comments. Otherwise, I no longer have any reason to participate. Thank you for some of the fair debates we have been able to conduct, but my enthusiasm for fair discussion has been lost over time.

    I am just so thankful that a pilot and copilot and navigator of a commercial aircraft are required to learn how to fly first and then be hired to be further trained in order to fly safely. These Craps players think this game is for the simple minded with thoughts of hitting it big... when the best minds in this game can only minimize the House Advantage without sleight of hand dice swaps at a friendly game at home.

    I wanted to learn more about Craps on the Forum, even with my limited expertise. But, never imagined what a mistaken impression I had to following some topics. I even quit following some topics due to the insanity and misuse of facts. Take off the blinders, open your mind and trust common sense. I know it is out there... somewhere.
     
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  2. mrjohnrstevens, Jul 22, 2013

    mrjohnrstevens

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    The logic and rational of playing Craps is: You're at the Casino. On vacation; convention; passing by or having it come to you n the way of a party. You know your going to play. Craps is a fun social game where with just a bit of luck you can win big. Even if you win small then take that and hit a slot big your're a winner.

    Craps has a low vig 1.41% with some of the highest payouts. 7 - 1, 15 -1, 30 -1. With attentive play these become easy to attack.

    Craps is the only game where you could follow other peoples luck.

    Craps is easy to learn because it plays similar to Chess or Checkers.

    Craps is the only casino table game where you could Checkmate. Force the table to pay out on each and every roll. It could take yrs to Checkmate another Chess player and become the champ; but with Craps this could be accomplished many times over and over and over with just a couple hrs of lessons. And when you're Champ people cheer! Or you could just sit in your quiet room.

    There ain't no sleight of hand winners. Scarne was supposedly on of the first magicians hired to guard that stuff.

    "I" have read Scarne many times. Tells you nothing about how to win. If you're looking for a good mathilogical start to winning the game try 'The Facts of Craps" by Walter P. Nolan.

    If you're that mixed up over all the info put out on this sight then my advice is to stay away from cook books. Nobody has the same recipe.
     
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  3. one man wolf pack, Jul 22, 2013

    one man wolf pack

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    If a game was mathematically beatable it wouldn't be offered.
    You expect everyone to random roll and take pass line bets with full odds. That isnt very fun.

    Most controlled shooters do it the way they do because they've had success with it in the past. Craps is a game with much superstition and odd habits. If you want people to play each hand optimally to your standard go play 25$ a hand blackjack where everyone plays basic strategy. Craps is for the gamblers, not the grinders.
     
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  4. mycoalsmith, Jul 22, 2013

    mycoalsmith

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    SevenOut,
    But you are forgetting that everyone has to start from somewhere. I have been playing for a little bit over a year now and I came here because I was fascinated by the game, and came to learn. That is the thing about forums - you have all levels of knowledge on the issue - some are just beginners and have no clue, some have been playing for a while, but aren't learning from their experience, some have mid-experience, and some have the rules, payouts, and knowledge of the game down.

    I know some of the things I have knowledge on, I get on a forum to learn more, and I'm amazed at the beginners just starting out that have no clue on the subject. On the other hand, you find out something new from time to time, or get reminded about something you had learned but had "forgot". But yes, it can be frustrating when you have a mid - high knowledge on Craps and you have a beginner (or someone that hasn't ever played at all) ask "How many times does a person throw the dice before they get passed to the next shooter?"

    You have alot of knowledge on the subject, and some of us with lesser knowledge can use your knowledge.

    Stick around and help guide the newbies and less experienced!
     
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  5. jkluv7, Jul 24, 2013

    jkluv7

    jkluv7 Member

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    SevenOut -
    What you say and are feeling is true. However, not everyone has the knowledge that you do. Not everyone is equal. This is a class room with freshman, seniors, masters and PHD candidates. All sorts. The main menu of the forum tries its best to seperate the wheat from the chaffe. To wit, the more experienced have to deal with the less experienced and deal with them more often. It's not a bad thing. What makes it bad are the outliers; those who want to argue and fight you about how to play the game with the most optimum strategy. These are the people which makes your time on this forum so bad. I hope you stay around for I do so love reading your posts and thoughts and road trip reports. These are the things which make it all good for all the less experienced.
    If not, it has been a total pleasure reading and responding to your posts.
    Jeffrey
     
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  6. Grizzoola, Jul 24, 2013

    Grizzoola

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    You might be including me, 7Out. Let me put it this way re: the topics I post on this board: I'm a student of this game. I'm still learning, and, yes, I ask "stupid" questions, because these questions occur to me in reading about/playing the game. I'll admit the math of craps, beyond a certain point, is lost on me.

    What do I know of the math of craps? This: That the 7 is expected to occur more than the other numbers; the 6/8 occur less, the 5/9 occur less than that, & the 4/10 less than all. Well, except for the craps numbers. Also, that the payouts for the 4/10 are more than the 6/8. I also know that the casino does not pay true odds, except on the PL/DP, Come/DC, odds bets. I know that these bets w/ odds have lowest HA, despite the fact that the flat bets are house odds. I also know that there is some controversy re: whether PL/DP, Come/DC w/ odds are better bets than than Place bets on the same numbers. I know that controversy. It has helped in my making up my mind which way I want to go. (PL/Come w/ odds. It's just me.)

    I finally know that the best laid plans of mice & men often go awry. (Robert Burns poem, "To a Mouse," 1786.) This is so true of craps, a great metaphor for life, itself. That's why it interests me. It really doesn't matter what strategy one uses, as so many have said: Craps, like all gambling, is a negative expectation game. ("In the long term, we are all dead.") Yet, there's still the hope that I can "beat the odds" against winning, & many have been successful. Whether through smart betting or pure luck is uncertain.

    One thing I do know: It's not so much that the 7 shows more than other numbers, it's WHEN it shows. I can go thru all the Come-Outs w/ their piddly returns, put all my PL/Come bets up w/ odds, only to have the 7 wipe out that bet on the next roll. Which wipes out all previous Come-Out "wins." Don't get me wrong: those occurrences don't happen that often, but when they do, w/ my limited buy-in, it hurts a lot. But, that's gambling.

    I've posted a topic re: Variance, only because I am trying to understand things I read about craps, but I find this supposedly solid math/statistical term thrown around according to everyone's definition. With a couple of helpful posts in that thread, I'm getting a better feel for the term. So, rail on, 7Out, re: my ignorance & why I play craps. I'm only on this board to learn & not get put down, & if you cannot abide that, either don't respond, or do as you've threatened before, leave this board. I get some nuggets of knowledge & some entertainment from your posts, but I don't need your put-downs of people like me, if indeed, I'm one of those you have in mind.
     
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  7. jpaz

    jpaz Member

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    strategy is always a good plan coming in but sometimes you need to read/ feel the table. I have seen straight dumb lames win a few grand (no lie) in minutes timing the field. not my plan coming in but seen it work. stupid!
     
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  8. jkluv7, Jul 27, 2013

    jkluv7

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    Playing the Field is not a strategy. It is simply 'hope'. And, as we all know, Hope is not a Strategy. One can get really lucky but with a win rate of 16-20 Against the player, hardly makes it a good bet.
    It's not whether you win or lose, but if your bet was a good one.
    Know the odds of this game before you show up to the table and play the odds. All that crap in the center of the table(is that how this game got its name?) are the worst bets on the table. Fun to play, exciting when they hit, but... they will KILL you in the long run. Center bets, hopping bets, HW bets, Field bets... all there to keep the lights on in the casino and pay the bonuses to the owners.
     
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  9. basicstrategy777, Jul 27, 2013

    basicstrategy777

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    The operation was successful.....but the patient died.

    777
     
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  10. $nakeEye$, Jul 28, 2013

    $nakeEye$

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    With the " exception " of the post directly above mine - ( BS 777 's ) -

    This is a " first " for the ' CrapsForum ' -

    Intelligent , educated , well thought-out , lucid and valid responses to a direct dissertation / remark -

    Hopefully, this be the first of many, many more likewise responses / remarks / opinions which are " of substance " -

    As opposed to being full of everything else -

    I was always certain there was intelligent life / beings lurking behind the shadows / curtain walls that were erected by a select few members of this forum of which are non-believers in the possibility of DI / DC -

    $...eE..$
     
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  11. basicstrategy777, Jul 28, 2013

    basicstrategy777

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    SE......my line, "The operation was successful.....but the patient died." was directed to this quote...."It’s not whether you win or lose, but if your bet was a good one. "

    I thought my comment was apothegmatic.

    To say and believe either line is rather silly, IMHO. I would not like to be on the receiving end of either one.

    One can state the obvious about only making low vig bets when playing, however, that is not the nature of the game or the players playing the game. High vig bets have their place. Ultimately the final arbiter is Tyche and she will determine if you win or lose......not the odds.

    Personally, it rubs me the wrong way when someone tells me I should not play the field because it is a bad bet and I should play craps strictly by the math/odds of the game. I would rather rise or fall by my own game plan and not someone elses. You can lay out the facts, but everyone here should play any way they want and not be critized for it. Smart has nothing to do with it.

    777
     
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  12. Dave73, Jul 28, 2013

    Dave73

    Dave73 Member

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    No one can claim to make good bets by using the "math of the game"...according to the math there is NO good game, and there are NO good bets. Even my teenage daughter figured this out after I explained the odds? HA to her... her response" If the casino has an advantage on every bet, why do you play?" THAT is a question that any DICE PLAYER who is NOT IGNORANT of the GAME cannot answer!!
     
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  13. jkluv7, Jul 28, 2013

    jkluv7

    jkluv7 Member

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    I do so wish people would either learn to read, or simply read.
    I clearly stated that the center and field bets are FUN to play and FUN when they hit... too many people simply do not KNOW the odds of the box-cars paying 30-1 on a roll whose true odds are 36-1.
    Is this thread, too, going to turn into the usual pissing contest on this forum?
    Please, let's not stoop this low.
    Jeffrey
     
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  14. basicstrategy777, Jul 28, 2013

    basicstrategy777

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    No pissing contest....just a difference of opinion.

    My disagreeing with you means I am stooping low ?

    I'll shut it down and you can have it to yourself.

    BTW...the chance of rolling atomic craps is 1 in 36.....this translates to 35 to 1 ( not 36 to 1 )

    777
     
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  15. $nakeEye$, Jul 28, 2013

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    BS777 -

    Regardless of your opinion in this or any other matter -

    I said what I said in an effort to have you respond in a more intellectual manner than what your initial response was limited to -

    Although you and I tend to have differences of opinions - on a couple of issues - your input should be more substantial than just relegating it to a terse comment or anecdote or whatever -

    I am truly taken aback that you have responded in a true sportsman like manner as you did - ( see your response below ) -

    NOW , THAT is more apropos to the subject matter than your initial " The operation ...... " response -

    I personally wish to thank YOU for your intelligent and in-depth response to the above topic of discussion -

    Regardless of what reprecussions occur - YOU made a statement -

    I am proud for you -

    You took a stance -

    Other than the usual sitting on the ' top of the fence ' -

    Looking forward to more of your ' in-depth / intellectual ' responses !

    $...eE..$


     
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  16. basicstrategy777, Jul 29, 2013

    basicstrategy777

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    SE.....I have been accused of many things, but sitting on the fence is not one of them. I usually see things as black or white and there is not much gray; probably not a good thing. One of my sayings is...." Sit or stand, but don't wobble."

    Glad to see you have temporarily holstered your verbal gun. It demonstrates maturity and a willingness to improve your social skills. We can all improve in some areas.

    Good luck at the tables.

    777
     
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  17. rudeboy99, Jul 30, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    SevenOut...the majority ( I'm guessing) of the players I'm familiar with, mostly DON'T know the total game...they generally try to figure out, through study, live game experience and simulation software, those aspects of the game which impact their playing strategy. Some DO have a total grasp of the game. And some will NEVER figure it out. But hey, it's recreation...and if things go right, you might have some extra cash for awhile. Personally, I wish more players would familiarize themselves with the rules, table procedures and mathematics of the game, as it would take quite a bit of heat off me. There will always be a segment of people that won't or can't put out the effort, I think that's part of the human condition. Take care...
     
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  18. SevenOut, Aug 23, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Enjoyed our Wyoming camping trip. Found no Jade, but was surprised at the number of abandoned antique car bodies left in the desert and used to dump into ravines to prevent more erosion. Might be a market for this stuff and kept GPS locations to find them again. Did run into a large group of RV and Trailer campers panning gold in the high country! When you see fifteen large RV's and Trailers with lots of 5 gallon buckets next to them... gold panners/sluicers. I only had one pan with me and shovel. I remembered spending hours at Fairplay, Colorado getting about $1 in gold flour in five hours of back breaking effort. This place might be a payer...

    There appears to be a whole "new crowd" moving into the Craps Forum. They all seem to know one another as well and ALL have a winning system and more loose bolts than a mechanic can keep track.

    Oops. The wife says dinner is ready and it preempts Craps. I will get back to my head shaking of disappointing Craps Degenerates being suckered into more mumbo jumbo Craps action. Sometimes I wonder who is paying their rent and car payments by working at an actual 40 hour a week job for these "winners" with 10x the bankrolls of average Craps players?

    Craps is not a game of Semantics. Craps is a mathematical probability game of chance. If you cannot multiply, you should be a Craps spectator. How would you know a correct payout? You do not need to know the "exact" house percentage to play Craps.

    Those who claim that more experienced Craps players are too critical on their questions or remarks AND should not even be making comments to these beginner posts. You know who you are... If that is the case, these beginners should stick to the Topics with outrageous remarks, proofs and claims that cannot be tested, proved to have even happened and can NEVER be wrong or criticized. You throw in some basics. A $10 table. A $25 table. 10X odds. 5X odds. $2500 bankroll. $250 bankroll. And... the rest is pure Sucker Bait.

    Yes. I know everyone wants to hear... "how to play Craps to WIN". Even the Sucker Bait Topics get a lot of attention, from some "newly found Craps Forum Members" who seem to all know the game and one another. Probably just a bit of weird chance... yep. If there was a sure way to win at Craps... I would have already known it and for no charge... explained the system in detail. Those who are smart players, understand that the best is minimizing the House Advantage, Luck and being able to have the mental acumen to press up when using winnings versus exposing bankroll to chance.

    I will give you another example. In the US Army I soloed in a helicopter after 12 hours in 1970 at the age of 19. I think I sweated myself into jerky on that first touch and go, wondering... was I flying this contraption or the trainer all of this time? When the Warrant Officer told me I was ready to solo, we landed, he got out and I was going to find out immediately if I was ready. I took the written classes and understood the elements of flight. The Warrant Officer, fresh out of Viet Nam with 1,000 hours, 2500 hours... understood what I was going through and thinking. He KNEW I was ready, even after correcting for not flairing on the autorotation early enough or looking for a landing spot in the event the engine was shot out, or tail rotor. I was pretty much too focused to be scared shitless. I soloed, was thrown into the swimming pool in Mineral Wells, Texas and joined the WOC solo group for the class. Afterwards... you were able to LEARN, as the basics were covered. This is what I mean by the Teacher/Student relationship.

    Let the experience of a former or current Craps Dealer build upon YOUR ABILITY. Let the experienced "mathematical orientated" player get you to solo. If you have what it take to be a Craps Player... you will solo, you will develop YOUR STYLE, YOUR SYSTEM or YOUR INSIGHT guide you at any Craps Table, at any time, any where with any bankroll... small or smaller. Only fools play to RETIRE from this poison we call Craps.

    I have to say that more than 50% of those at a Craps Table cannot function with any competence at the Craps Table. A portion of the other 50% may know their way around a table, but would puke into their service cap before touching the ground when they lose half of their bankroll (especially with a $2500 chip count). Maybe, just maybe you have the remaining 25% to 30% that have not washed out of the basics, but now need to have the intuition of how "their game" is going. If you have it, you will get your Craps Pilot Wings. Others, who could or who can not handle the pressure at the table, get onto a Craps Forum and "talk their game". When the Sucker Bait is taken by any remaining "candidates", those who do take the bait, should not be allowed to get the rotors up to RPM at a live game. You are going to overspeed your mental engine and fall apart before you had a chance to hang in the game.

    Craps is not a game that anyone who wants to be... can. You have to have an innate ability, if you like to hear this or not. It is tough to hear from an instructor you just "ain't worth a crap as a pilot". It is the same with Craps. Oh, you can talk it up... but those who have their Craps Wings... know horse shit from horse shoes.

    Last comment. Do you wonder WHY among thousands of retired and active Craps Dealers, only a couple actually try to stomach some of the weird on this Forum? Because the Scammers and Hustlers gang up to discredit them with statements that cannot be answered... unless you are one of the "group". I see the Carp swimming after this Sucker Bait and getting a taste. Well, this bait has a metal hook within the tasty Stink Bait. If you want to grow up fat and happy... listen to us dry, old farts that know better. Otherwise, go swim along, get suckered by that last group of "educated players" and sing their song... until your bankroll and esteem are gone. It is not too late for some of you, but those who WILL MEET THE CHALLENGE... study the responses to posts and decide... shit or shoes.
     
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  19. jkluv7, Aug 24, 2013

    jkluv7

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    Bang SevenOut !!! Hit the nail on the proverbial head. You can see the majority of these newbies think the earth is flat and want you to prove it to them. If you veer away toward the circle-thingy they think you are being dumb and not listening to them. It's FLAT damnit! Why can't we all just listen to them? Why don't we understand the 12 is a good bet because it pays $30?

    A big welcome back to ye and it sounds like you had a nice vacation. At least you learned that sluicing for gold is like playing craps !!
    Jeffrey
     
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  20. SevenOut, Sep 2, 2013

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    I have laid back and let the grass grow too tall and need to do a bit of Dice Mowing on this Topic.

    Many posts of the Forum have good intentions. Yet, if you disagree with their, usually vague, undefined purpose of posting... you get more vague, undefined arguments as a response. And that is fine. It exposes the bottom feeder element of the Forum to those who are Free Swimmers and can think for themselves. I have often stepped into these "Fog Machines" and try to clear the air. Often it is debatable if anything had been accomplished. What is very interesting is where part of a sentence or a paragraph is used ... to prove "their" point by using your point out of context. But that is the Bottom Feeder slopping around in the muddy pond, gasping for what air remains in the evaporated pool. It is the nature of things that right will prevail and wrong... well, wrong just keeps bottom feeding until all of the Carp are in a smaller pond and all agree that... we are all in this together. And, good, the water is fine.

    I discovered in the Beginner Craps topics that beginners just want to be "left alone". Beginners do not need to be criticized, NOR want Advanced Craps players intervening and made to look like .... (you fill in the blank). There are NO questions not worth asking... I say. Only foolish responses/answers by another Beginner Craps player. You are cashing in a one Dollar question for 65 cent answer, or less. Why would anyone think, or even believe that a Beginner/Novice can even answer a basic Craps question, made by another Beginner/Novice? It defies logic, or something like that.

    I ask the Topic author.... Define your terminology... FIRST, before stinking up the place. Obviously, by defining a term... lets say sarcasm... as an example I pulled out of the air and added to this post in the Advanced Craps. Maybe the Topic Author... lets say there is such a topic... is thinking one thing for a meaning of a word and other posters respond, thinking the term means something, else. You know, the Bill Clinton... "I did not have sex with that woman", and "define sex" delicate situation. That is why, if and when I make a Post or present a new Topic, I try to make it clear what point I am making or responding.

    I find it remarkable and maybe a few others have noticed. There seem to be 30, maybe a few more regular posters and a Topic can have hundreds or a thousand "views". Someone must be ticklish and hitting the topic button, over and over and over... or is there a large group of Craps voyeurs afraid to expose themselves to the established crowd? Something just does not add up, but I always post a clear question to discover a possible answer... first. I have already brought up the obvious absence of former and current Craps dealers onto the Forum. I think there are at least two, maybe three current dealers as you can read their post(s) and they... shock... make sense. Why not MORE?

    When I troll the Forum to see if there is something interesting or just a bit off in facts... I might post or just pass on making any statement, as it brings us back to the bottom feeding statement made earlier. Some Topic I might follow it awhile and let is fester. Another I might just jump into the mud fest and try to present a reasonable answer... often to no avail. It is the nature of an Open Forum. You might mean well when making a response to a Topic... but that is not the perception of those whose intent is really, not wanting a rational response, but to push on a personal agenda, but not explaining an emotional issue very well that is difficult for others to understand. Craps cannot be played WITH ONLY emotion as your game. Craps CAN be discussed easily, if you understand the basics of the "game" and keep to fact and less fiction. Ideas can be discussed, reworded and tuned up... or even added to. You do not have to be a vocal contrary or a chronic follower of a system to present reasonably accurate information and back it up with simple statistics.

    I believe I have offered a cord of firewood to go after with this reply. Lets keep the ideas coming and hopefully one or more leave the discussion understanding more afterwards!
     
    #20
    yacraps, Twelve4s and eagleeye2 like this.