Hopping any number (etiquette?)

Discussion in 'Prop Bets & Side Bets' started by CrapCheckKing, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. CrapCheckKing, Aug 3, 2012

    CrapCheckKing

    CrapCheckKing Member

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    Ok, so I'm playing last night- I yell out "Hop the 10s" and toss $2 into the middle of the table, while the dice were still in the center. I repeat myself, because the stick man doesn't hear. He still ignores me, I say it for a third, the dealer next to me hears it but doesn't say bet....Sure enough a 10 comes out.

    THe side dealer is nice and pays me for it, but tells me that he was doing me a favor and could have said no bet. I was kind of puzzled. I threw my chips and called my bet well before the dice were out. What did I do wrong? Does the stick man actually need to place the bet on the hop before the bet is good??

    any advice on how to bet the hops, minimum bets etc would be helpful.
     
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  2. kaysirtap, Aug 3, 2012

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. In a perfect world, you would have also stated how much your bet was ("$1 each"), but I would say that in a typical situation what you did was completely acceptable.

    There are definitely some casinos where the bets have to be properly placed on the layout to be considered booked (particularly proposition bets). However, this is not a requirement in most casinos.

    I don't really have much advice for you regarding requesting your bets other than stating the dollar amount. That goes for any bet on the table that has to be placed by a dealer, I guess. Of course, if you're only hopping a specific easy combination of a certain number, you should state so by using the specific dice combination since there can be more than one easy six, for example... or a particular five. I'm sure you already figured that out.

    You get into tricky territory when you say something like "hop the fives". With "tens", it's a no-brainer. But "fives"? What does that mean? 3-2 and 4-1? Or did you mean 5-5? Using the dice combination should clear this up.

    Hrm... (still thinking off all the ways players can take shots in these situations)

    Phrasing it like "thirty-two on the hop" would probably create the least confusion because "three-two hopping" can also be ambiguous, for example. Use the larger number first (this seems to be the more natural way of doing it). I suppose you don't really have to do that, but you definitely don't want to use "teens" like "fourteen on the hop" for 1-4. Horn numbers should be referred to as "Aces" "Ace-Deuce" "Yo" and "Twelve"

    I suppose someone could also announce their player position at the table when making prop bets... but I can almost guarantee that most dealers would find this more annoying than helpful. I wouldn't do it if I were you. The dealers are supposed to do that, but if a player did it, it would look like they were trying to show that they knew so much about the game that they could deal it themselves or something like that. Trust me... it's not a good idea.

    Minimum bets are typically $1 per combination, but may vary. For fun, you can test the crew and see if they'll book a $5 split (or any odd dollar amount) hop the 5s, 9s, or any combination of two bets that pay 15 to 1 (assuming of course that the casino doesn't pay 15 for 1). My experience tells me that most dealers will be quick to no-bet you... but will then realize (hopefully) that they calculate this type of payout all the time. Of course, if the casino has a method of paying you $0.50 at the table, this experiment isn't as much fun.
     
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  3. basicstrategy777, Aug 4, 2012

    basicstrategy777

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    The word "each" makes everything crystal clear when announcing your bets at the table and surrendering your money.

    There is zero doubt what your intentions are when you use the word "each" . I would get use to using it whenever appropriate, when making bets.

    If people are raining chips at the stick, and your position is close to the dealer, you can slide your chips to the dealer and tell him the prop bet you want.

    777
     
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  4. falcon, Aug 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Dealers usually wear name tags where I play. If so, get the stickman's name and call directly to him and have him or her acknowledge you and the bet, otherwise toss the chips to where you can get his attention ( I will leave that one to your imagination.)

    I personally love the hop bets because one can bet across the top with four Place bets and fill in the other two numbers with hops with about 40% less risk while collecting the hits at just about the same payouts.

    Example: Place $15 each on the 4,5,9, & 10 and hop the 6 & 8 for $1 each way for a total of $6. Your overall $ risk is $66; a craps loses $6; an easy 6/8 nets $10; a hard 6/8 nets $25; a 5/9 nets $15; and a 4/10 nets $21.

    Using the hop bets alone on an individual number or two is really a sucker bet, however, hopping several numbers in combinations can result in some decent winning.

    If you have a small amount of funds, buy in $100, for $10 one could hop the 4,5,6,8,9, & 10 (easy ways only). Each win nets $5. There are 14 ways to lose and 22 ways to win or a 61.1% chance of winning on any given toss. Two hits in a row allows one to break even on any initial set of wagers and doubling up can make for some excitement and profit.

    falcon
     
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  5. kaysirtap, Aug 6, 2012

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    CrapCheckKing, this reply is directed at you.
    Falcon's definition of "risk" is different than mine... and most everybody else's on this forum. Same goes for his definition of "just about the same".

    Stop the presses, folks... falcon's calculations are correct. He did forget the Yo, though... which also loses $6. He should have substituted "craps loses $6" with "any Horn number loses $6". Despite this fantastic display of arithmetic, his trade-off of lower losses on a 7 for increased losses (or reduced wins) on other numbers makes this a mathematically poorer substitute for placing the 6 & 8, rather than hopping them. But hey... that's just my opinion... and likely the opinion of most other Craps players.

    Oh well, falcon probably should have ended on a high note with his previous calculations. I'm sure most people will be able to find the error in this passage. "[With hat in hand] Golly Mr. Falcon, that's not exactly correct."

    Shh... don't tell falcon. Let's see if he can save some face and figure it out for himself.
     
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  6. JGreen6918, Aug 6, 2012

    JGreen6918

    JGreen6918 Member

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    HAHAHA

    LOL! Good one, falcon. Stop trying to make people lose more money at this game. It's not nice to mess with people like that when they're just trying to find reliable information here.
     
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  7. falcon, Aug 6, 2012

    falcon

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    kst's definition of risk is much better, i.e., bet the PL which provides only a 14 cent HA advantage then add max odds behind the line (also known as free odds) which has no HA for a combined risk of only 14 cents. So he advocates, at a $10 table with 20X odds to wager a total of $210 after every point is established with the "expected" losses of only $1.40 over the "long term" even though most everyone knows that only one-third of all points are converted in the "long term."

    Stop the presses, folks... falcon's calculations are correct. He did forget the Yo, though... which also loses $6. He should have substituted "craps loses $6" with "any Horn number loses $6". Despite this fantastic display of arithmetic, his trade-off of lower losses on a 7 for increased losses (or reduced wins) on other numbers makes this a mathematically poorer substitute for placing the 6 & 8, rather than hopping them. But hey... that's just my opinion... and likely the opinion of most other Craps players.[/quote}

    Yep forgot the 11; sorry about that.

    Oh well, falcon probably should have ended on a high note with his previous calculations. I'm sure most people will be able to find the error in this passage. "[With hat in hand] Golly Mr. Falcon, that's not exactly correct."

    Shh... don't tell falcon. Let's see if he can save some face and figure it out for himself.[/quote]

    Yep, messed up again in my zeal to advance something a little different. 20 ways to win and 16 ways to lose or 55.5% chance of winning. Don't need to save face simply because when corrected accurately, I can handle it unlike some others here.

    Do you suppose those guys can come up with a way to wager the PL/FO and have the possibility of winning 55.5% of the time? I wonder how they can spin that one.............??

    falcon
     
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  8. falcon, Aug 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    First JG, I appreciate and accept your previous apology (on another thread). You craps "establishment" players do more for house profits with your advocation of the PL/FO as in the 1.41% HA on PL bets plus the 0% HA on the FO bets than I ever could. You are the unwitting shills they love to see at the tables. Oh and BTW, I never LOL when those losses happen; I am saddened for the lack of enlightenment.

    falcon
     
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  9. kaysirtap, Aug 6, 2012

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    Please do not put words in my mouth. While taking the maximum allowable odds allows a player to have a low expected loss per dollar bet over time, I advocate betting to maximize entertainment. Additionally, converted points do not consider all of the possibilities of winning the PL. I will not get into an argument with you about this, falcon. You have your point of view, and we have ours... and we have all stated them. Let's let others decide for themselves without the constant back and forth, okay?
    No, I don't see any way of doing that. However, if given the choice between the following two:

    A) Win $5 55.6% of the time and lose $10 44.4% of the time

    or

    B) Win $10 49.3% of the time and lose $10 50.7% of the time

    I would personally choose option B any day of the week.
     
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  10. falcon, Aug 7, 2012

    falcon

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    I was pretty much tongue in cheek here, but you are right we each have pretty much beat the dead horse into the ground.[/falcon]

    A) Win $5 55.6% of the time and lose $10 44.4% of the time

    or

    B) Win $10 49.3% of the time and lose $10 50.7% of the time

    I would personally choose option B any day of the week.[/quote]

    The PL/FO is just not my thing, so I would abstain from B. I would use other conservative strategies in place of B otherwise, my way is a tad more risky, but the results come quite a bit quicker and larger on both ends. It is here that one must exhibit trust in the math AND discipline with a loss barrier.

    falcon
     
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  11. Heavy

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    Double the size of your hop bet and shout "Two way - two way tens on the hop - me and the boys" and they'll hear you and book it every time.
     
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  12. idoc

    idoc Member

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    Like
     
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  13. falcon, Aug 11, 2012

    falcon

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    So the NJ way is to be blackmailed into providing a premature "tip" for really bad service? I think I would rather toss the hop directly at the boxman's stacks; get his attention; disrupt the shooter; and get the bet placed properly. If there is no courtesy and accommodation available at the tables, why should I care about what the table thinks about me? At the same time, my hop bets need to be timely and accurate.

    falcon
     
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  14. Heavy

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    LOL. Been a long time since I've been to New Jersey - the only place I've ever been where a host expects a "toke" of $100 if he hooks you up with a "comped" room. Fact is - the boxman is usually responsible for setting up the hop bets. He's the guy with his hands hanging over the table - protecting the house's bankroll. Bounce your chips off his knuckles if you want to. As for courtesy and accommodation at the tables - I have found that most people standing at the craps table fall into one of three categories - (1) Jerks (2) Assholes (3) Don't Give a Damn. I know where I fall in that grouping. How about you?
     
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  15. falcon, Aug 12, 2012

    falcon

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    In MS, the stickman is responsible for the hop bets. If one is at the far ends of the table, your closest dealer will book the bet and get the chips to either the stick or box. I reject your "3 catagories." Your Vegas hardcore patrons might fall into one of those slots, but most folks are playing to have a good time, are courteous and respectful, and hopefully experience some good play. Obviously, bad behavior attracts the same in return. Since the center of the gambling world has moved from Vegas, marketing and customer service needs to return as Vegas continues to struggle. Biloxi is building two more casinos and a third just opened, and the comps are free flowing. The "whales" don't need Vegas anymore.

    falcon
     
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  16. Heavy

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    Well, Biloxi is certainly closer to the beach.
     
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  17. falcon, Aug 22, 2012

    falcon

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    With the tax burden continuing to grow in a geometric progression in CA, Vegas beach property may become a reality within the forseeable future as CA will be dropping into the Pacific.

    I just returned from a four day trip to Biloxi. I had six sessions of craps and did well. I won four sessions and lost two. One of the two sessions was a loss of $30 after about two hours of play where the table was so inconsistent that frustration set in and rather than pursue more of the same, I left. The other session of loss was for about $140. The four winning sessions combined in total wins exceeding the losses by five + times.

    For $nakEye$: I used my "fudged iron cross" with about 80% success by hopping two numbers plus the field and doubling the bets three times in a row before coming down completely. I did not use it on every shooter; I tried to gauge the table and play when there were periods of "stability."

    I spent a total of about 13 hrs at the table. There was not even a hint of a DI. My play started using the Doey/Don't and after the point was established, I played odds on the Don't with a couple of Place bets. I won because the simplest of mathematical equations provides a large tipping of the winning scales to the house especially when the established points were the 4,5,9, & 10. The last session I played was a very cold table with only one shooter in 2 hrs converting a point. That one shooter converted two quick point/points in a row. When he established the third, I played the FO and my "fudged IC"; he threw several numbers and converted point three. When he came out again with a 10, I played the Don't odds; he then 7ed out. Was I lucky? Yes. The table then went back to cold and I continued to win. No one at the table played the Don't except me. They all lost bunches. The"establishment" mentality does not allow for any sort of flexibility. What a shame.

    falcon
     
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  18. DeMango, Aug 22, 2012

    DeMango

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    My Dear Falcon;
    Congratulations on your wins at The Beau. That's the beauty of your system = it wins 83% of the time. And playing the don't is the smart way to play overall. Concerning DI's; I must say though, that the hours you keep is like mentioning you stayed up all afternoon and didn't see a vampire
     
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  19. falcon, Aug 23, 2012

    falcon

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    Thanks for the pat on the back. I have played a couple hundred hours at the Beau and other Biloxi venues over the past several months and I can count on one hand the number of perceived DI's at the tables I frequented and none of them had any measure of success. That is not to say there were no "hot" shooters; they appeared infrequently but were random rollers.

    Since winning is the name of the game, I find it interesting that your comment would not create a rush to the simple and true arithmatic that associates itself with the Don't side. Obviously there is an inherent adversity to the realization that somehow most all "establishment" players cannot be flexible enough or disciplined enough to make the change. Of my four winning sessions, and while I was at the table, I came away as the only winner three times. The rest fell to the wayside and left much lighter in their wallets. The fourth session had longer shooters and more converted points which allowed me the switch my play to the right side and take advantage of a pretty good table. I lost in the beginning but recovered quite nicely.

    BTW DM, when you told the MP, I was using his stats and published info on this site, he promptly came down in a harsh way on me and will not return my PM's to him. Nice going, and did you review the posting I sited and was I accurate in how I quoted him? You are strangely silent and AWOL when it comes to owning up to your mistakes and misrepresentations.

    falcon
     
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  20. DeMango, Aug 23, 2012

    DeMango

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    My dear Falcon;
    Silence from me? No, I think not. You misrepresented some figures from the MP, he was obviously not pleased, and ignored you. Facts just came in between a budding relationship, it is what it is. Just as it is here, when you come up with some outlandish figures, someone will correct you. As I said before, the place to go is John Patricks board, Math boys need not apply!
     
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