Have you ever taken dice control classes?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by orthopak, Jul 23, 2011.

  1. orthopak, Jul 23, 2011

    orthopak

    orthopak Member

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    Hi,

    New to the forum and the world of dice control. I played craps for the first time in Vegas last week and I was able to play for 11 hours straight on a $200 session bankroll and left with $100 profit. After that I was hooked on the game. I used that as a crash course and saw 6 different betting strategies from 6 dealers. Amazingly the conservative approach was the one that made me money. I also spoke to all my neighbors at the table and got their views of the game. One person recommended I learned about dice setting and dice control.

    So my question is, is it worth it to go to a dice control class? I have 3 choices, either the GTC course, the dice coach or a local teacher in my area which is half price of the GTC course. I already purchased a practice rig and I know many of you say to practice on your own, but I want to speed up the learning curve. I currently only play poker so I have all the qualities of a non-gambler looking to grind out profits. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
     
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  2. basicstrategy777, Jul 23, 2011

    basicstrategy777

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    My advice is to stick with poker. It is the best game in the house vig wise.

    Craps is a great game but a tough game to win at.

    My views on dice control are negative so you probably want to hear from those folks that think it is a good thing.

    777
     
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  3. eagledice, Jul 23, 2011

    eagledice

    eagledice Member

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    Orthopak

    Welcome to the board. There is a ton of information here and a lot of great board members who are more than happy to offer sugestions. You may be like one of us and discovered that craps is not only a game but becomes a passion. Sounds like you are on your way.

    In regards to taking a Dice Control course, that is strickly up to each individual. It maybe best to spend a little "time" reading here and other craps message boards first before you spend any additional funds on any type course. There are a lot of really good teachers and courses out there, but do a little reading and listening here, then make an intelligent choice.

    Best of luck and Welcome to the party.............


    Eagledice
     
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  4. Southern-Comfort, Jul 23, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Before paying anybody to teach you whats already available, I would recommend seeing what you can learn without paying money. You'll be doing enough of that at the tables. GTC and Dice Coach seem to basically teach good old PARR (Patterson Rythm Rolling). No idea about your local guy since I don't know who it is.
    There is alot of good information out there for free, and alot of folks willing to confuse you even more... ummm I mean help you out, here.
    Stance, set, grip and toss. repeat.
    I will say that not everybody has what it takes to make money with dice influence. The influence you have lasts about 5 minutes per hour at the table. You need to make sure you are developing good money management skills along the way.
    Now about a pratice rig. You need something. Some practice on furniture, whatever makes you comfortable as long as the dimensions are about right.
     
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  5. orthopak, Jul 24, 2011

    orthopak

    orthopak Member

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    Thanks for the replies. My question to those who have replied, do you use dice control yourself or do you have profitable sessions with your money management/betting strategies? Can anyone recommend a book that has good info on money management and betting strategies? I've checked out Amazon but there are too many to choose from. I've been told that Forever Craps is a good read.
     
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  6. $nakeEye$, Jul 24, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    If am a little bit confused / concerned -

    " 11 hours of play with a $100.- profit equates to a $9.- +/- per hour gig. -

    How can you afford to be hooked by that pittly fortune ?"
     
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  7. orthopak, Jul 24, 2011

    orthopak

    orthopak Member

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    Considering I had 0 knowledge of the game, I think I did well for playing 11 hours. The money doesn't concern me as I make my money from poker. In the 11 hours I was at the table, the avg gambler did not last longer than 45 minutes. I'd say I only saw 3 or 4 winners and the rest were losers. The reason I'm hooked in this game is because of the social interaction and the fun it brings. As you know, poker is a grind and after you've been doing it for hours every day, at a certain point it no longer is fun and feels like work. I just want to branch off into other games that can have +EV or that I can have an edge in so when I'm feeling burned out by poker, I have a fall back game. Right now my other "fun" game is slots and we already know that's a recipe for disaster.

    Originally I was up $200 within the first 30 minutes and if I knew anything about the game and how volatile it can be, I would have left with that profit and came back later in the day. I know how to hit and run casino table games and I'm all about leaving the table with some money and coming back for more. Hope this clarifies as I know $9 an hour isn't much, but if I can make an avg of $100-$200 an hour, then I should be set.

    I've been reading some people start the game with $50-$100 and I think you really have to start with around $500 to make a nice second income. Correct me if I'm wrong and that is why I'm asking about money management and betting strategies so I can fit it within my bankroll.
     
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  8. Hardeight, Jul 24, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    He said he was a first timer Snake Eyes and at least he won money.I remember winning $56 my first time playing and its easy to get hooked.BUT DONT EXPECT TO WIN EVERYTIME MY FRIEND!
     
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  9. Hardeight, Jul 24, 2011

    Hardeight

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    I recommend you dont waste money on dice control school.This is something that you can teach yourself by practice.Remember you are not guaranteed anything so why "gamble" to pay for something that might not work.To me it would be like paying for classes on how to brush your teeth.Save that money to by books or just play thats the best teacher.I spend hours just watching people and look at their technique.If I have a question I just ask them.We are all there to helpeach other win money so they will be happy to tell you their tricks.
     
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  10. Hardeight, Jul 24, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    Oh yeah forget about "speeding up the learning curve" this game is about patience.Even if you practice several hours a day you must always be patient.Nothing in this world comes easy no matter how much you want it to
     
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  11. $nakeEye$, Jul 24, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Personally,

    I would refrain from taking a course - especially the GTC course - it's extremely over priced - and essentially what they teach you can be learned from 3 books for a total investment of probably less than $75.-

    The books that I would recommend are :

    1- " Get the Edge at Craps " by Sharpshooter - $14.95
    2- " Casino Craps - Shoot to Win " by Frank Scoblete - $19.95 (includes short instructional DVD )
    3.- " The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible " by Tino Gambino -$29.95

    Also, I have not reviewed it as of yet, but Tal Bernier hawks an instructional video for $ 6.95 - which is sold at http://www.practicecrapstable.com/video.html -

    You can learn as much, if not more, from the above and by searching the web than spending hundreds of $ taking a course(s).
     
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  12. Hardeight, Jul 24, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    Still curious on who has taken a dice control course.Theres always a sucker but I want to hear if they had success compared to someone like my self who is self taught.
     
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  13. eagledice, Jul 24, 2011

    eagledice

    eagledice Member

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    H8

    Well I guess after reading your quote I do qualify as a sucker who has taken a dice control course. I started playing craps 4 1/2 years ago. The first trip to Vegas took 2 or 3 daily craps classes that were offered by the Casino ( 11am deals ) and basically dropped a few hundred. Came home, did more research and after buying and reading the Sharpshooter book and a few of Franks dice books,. I learned about proper money management, but along the way the books did dwell on dice grips, tosses and such. My first pruchase was the PARR course for $200. Watch the videos a few times and was not confident doing the "toss". The next Vegas trip did much better betting but my toss was pretty much the "JO wingit". 3 or 4 tosses and done. Was at Harrahs, watched a guy (DI) shoot after me and nailed 4 of the firebet. I was a $5passline with double odds and inside coverage. I would press after doubling my money on the table. Well, with this guy my buyin went from $200 to $950. AFterwards caught him later and he said he saw the Dice Coach.

    My next trip, made an appointment for a 2 hour DI session. Since then I go for "tuneups" before my first stop at a craps table in Vegas. Now, I have to say, my sucess could be luck or skill or a combo of both. Since I first met DiceCoach I have seen him 6 maybe 7 times. I have never gone home form Vegas as a craps loser. I always have had good success. Now that does not mean I win every session. I generally play 2 maybe 3 times a day for 3 or 4 days. We all know that if we can win 50% of the time, we are on top of the world. Last year after seeing the Coach, the next morning at Harrahs, hit 5 of the firebet, set the 6th and bam pso. A month later at Greektown (Detroit ) same thing, 5 of 6 on Firebet. This year saw him in May. Hit 4 of the firebet. Now maybe it only helps me and others find that a coach does not improve their game.

    I have to say my game has improved 1,000% since I started with the Coach. I am not saying it works with all players. But a session with him is my way of getting refocused on betting, grips, tosses, which dice sets work best for me, and what do I do to change if my dice are reacting the "wrong" way.

    So the question is " Am I a sucker for paying a gentleman for being my Dice Coach"? Yes I guess I am.......

    By the way when I go to Vegas in 3 weeks for a business trip I am again meeting for a tuneup


    Eagledice
     
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  14. $nakeEye$, Jul 25, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    A " Sucker " hardly, my friend -

    Back in '88 ( that's 1988 for you young guns ) I took a BJ course -

    Cost me $895.- at the time - the course took approx. 2-3 months - between home learning at in house table play -

    1ST time out playing the system won $ 900.- in approx. 1 hour ( 4 shoes ) at the $5 min BJ tables -

    I also am a PARR client -

    Purchased the materials and videos, also had some interesting conversations via the forum with Walt ( the Sage ) Diem -prior to the demise of the more than one PARR forums -

    My take on the matter is simply this -

    Does one have the time , inclination , fortitude , dollars needed to re-invent the " WHEEL " -

    I do not -

    Therefore a trade-off is in order -

    This trade-off needs to be considered by each individual -

    How much $ am I willing to trade for ? much info -

    Some people can achieve acceptable results by watching / reading / practicing what is relayed in books , videos , pamphlets -

    Some people need more than that - they need to be led by the hand -

    Some people need a combination of both -

    There is nothing wrong with any of the 3 above scenarios -

    Each person is different -

    What is important, in my estimation , is that each person achieves his/her desired results, regardless how they arrive at that !

    What did I just say ?

    If you want to e successful and a winner at craps -

    If you need to take lessons - take lessons -

    If you can learn from reading books, watching videos, pamphlets - read them -

    regardless what route you take -you need to practice, practice, practice and then practice some more !
     
    #14
  15. basicstrategy777, Jul 25, 2011

    basicstrategy777

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  16. $nakeEye$, Jul 25, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    777 -

    I forgot why I do not watch BasketBall -

    You just reminded me when I checked out you above link -

    I practice dice setting, betting, hitting my target, counting cards, deck penetration and estimation, betting, basic strategy -

    I have no problem with spending time on " practice " man, it's just practice - not a game - just practice, man -

    You get out of it - what you put into it -

    And that's the hard cold truth of the matter !
     
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  17. The Midnight Skulker, Jul 27, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Before spending vast quantities of time, effort, and cash to acquire a skill, I would want to investigate the following:
    1. Is there such a skill?
    2. If so, am I physically able to acquire it?
    3. If so, is acquiring the skill worth the cost of acquisition?
    4. If so, will I be permitted to use it indefinitely?

    Answers

    1. The sheer volume of anecdotal evidence suggests that precision shooting, dice influence/control, rhythmic rolling, derandomization, or whatever you want to call it, is possible and that at least some people are doing it. However, I know of no controlled experiment conducted under casino conditions and monitored by a neutral third party that has shown the skill actually exists.

    2. I know it is possible to dunk a basketball because I have seen people do it. I also know that I do not have the physique necessary to do it regardless of how much instruction I might receive or how much I practiced. I would therefore advise testing your motor skills and co-ordination before paying to attend classes and seminars. You already have a practice rig; how often can you throw dice from seven feet away and hit a half-dollar placed at the base of the "wall"? (Never mind the results of the throws at this point.) You must be able to hit such a target a fair percentage of the time to have any chance of influencing the dice.

    3. It would seem prudent to ask those putting on the contemplated class or seminar how much of an advantage they think they have over the casino. I would then advise doing a rough cost/benefit analysis to determine if you are actually going to come out ahead. (Of course classes and seminars have a social aspect just as the game itself has, so you may want to take that into consideration when guesstimating the benefits.)

    4. We found out with blackjack that casinos have neither the obligation nor the inclination to take the action of advantage players. DI may be a self-eliminating skill: if enough players acquire it the gaming industry will surely change the rules for shooting (or perhaps even of the game itself, by using cards as in California), rendering the skill useless. It is for this reason that I personally would not pay for instruction. YMMV
     
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  18. $nakeEye$, Jul 27, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Midnight Skulker -

    Very well said, young man !
     
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  19. The Midnight Skulker, Jul 28, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

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  20. orthopak, Jul 28, 2011

    orthopak

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    Based off the article and how they compare it to poker, blackjack and pai gow, it only gives me more reasons to take a class. Thanks for all your input guys, hopefully I'll see you at the tables and we can all make money off each other.
     
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