GROUP / TEAM PLAY IN ATLANTIC CITY

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by $nakeEye$, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 13, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    Its funny how you have a problem with me "planting" the dice just short of the backwall which is tech against the rules but have no problem using scout teams to count cards at blackjack which is against the casino rules? Guess which one of us would be banned for life if caught organizing a illegal card counting ring which comes with additional fun stuff like fines and probation?
     
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  2. $nakeEye$, Nov 13, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    G7 -

    Funny that you should mention some of the more " finer points " behind the reasoning of this " scout teams " scenario -

    It was in fact, devised and organized by an individual who was essentially barred / banned world-wide for his expertise and uniqueness in his approach to the game -

    His attitude was - " If I can't play BlackJack - I will teach the world how to play BlackJack " -

    Needless to say - he fell a little short - in reaching his goal - as far as the quantity of players he taught -

    However , he over achieved his and everyone else's expectations in regards to the quality of players he instructed -

    I was not the " organizer " of these profitable and clandestine teams -

    I only wish I possessed 1/5 the iota of the " Boss " - ALL of us do / did - who were taught by him -

    The " rules of engagement " for the game of BlackJack makes no mention of back-counting tables and entering the table at a positive ( plus ) count -

    Those rules also do not prohibit the spread of bets when the advantage sways from house to player and vice-versa-

    " Illegal " is contrary to accepted and published rules . laws and / regulations -

    There was nothing " illegal " in what we did -

    There also was nothing " illegal " when the casinos took countermeasures against our method of play to protect their " bottom line " -

    It's a game of " cat and mouse " - or the " pigeon and the statue " -

    You definitely need to have " more than 1 shot in your bag " -

    Be honest with yourself -

    When you return stateside from your overseas tour -

    How long do you think you will be able to get away wth the shenanigans that you are trying to pull, presently -

    You are only playing a few times a year - what happens when you try and play daily, weekly, monthly -

    I was a Police Officer for 14 years before I told them to "stick it" - if you know the " law " the " rules " you will know how far you can bend them to your advantage if necessary - before something breaks -

    Honestly, I think that you will encounter more " trouble " than I with your " short rolls " -

    Then again , that is only my opinion -

    Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one - and most of them stink !
     
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  3. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 14, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    I will shoot the dice this way forever. I will always look for the advantage or i will not bet. Same goes for anything odds wise, sports betting, cards, horses, anything. If I don't feel I have a edge I will not bet. I will be a edge bettor for life. I will never be a longshot bullshit luck degenerate gambler but when I do find guys like that i will make a mint off betting against them.

    I can make money without ever touching the dice. its easy find the "larry loser" at the table and lay his ass. Just as they say a broken clock is right twice a day well thats about how many points the normal degenerate loser at the table is going to make with shit luck and the rest of the time he is going to 7 out just like he always does and I will get paid until he runs out of money or refuses the money i send over in chips after he 7's out and gets me paid. I had one guy that looked like Rod Stewarts loser brother and this guy had 2-3 throws and it was 7 out about 5 straight times. Finally he lost his last $10 pass line bet and he had already made me over 500 I asked him to let me pay for his pass line bets and continue to shoot when it was his turn and he did it making me more money that day. Then he was telling me how i was betting all wrong and that's not the correct way to play craps. I just laughed and said you must be my "unlucky" charm. I should have put a tracking bracelet on his ass.

    Ok these are how the warnings have gone in my 2.5 years of serious craps play in which I have averaged 50k a year in winnings in craps alone. I start with a warning from the stick man to throw the dice all the way down. Then i make a attempt to have only one of the die hit the back wall but just barely. Make it look like I am at least making a attempt. Then 2 more warnings from the stick man & dealer combo. Then the box man throws a warning, then pitboss gives 2 warnings and on the 3rd tells you you will not be allowed to throw the dice any longer unless you hit the back wall.

    Now you can speed this process up real quick by having winning bets on the throws short of the wall. And once the phone rings and the pitboss picks it up and the men upstairs are telling him to get you off your game and they try everything under the sun to ice you, pass the dice by you, close the table down and move you to a higher min table, pretend they lost count of the bets on the table and recount all chips, throw your friend out and say he is to drunk just to get you to leave, and if that does not work you will be denied action and asked to leave. Dice setting + winning = a short night of shooting craps. The ball game changes once you are winning and I am not talking about 15 dollar bets I am talking about bets 200 and above. I take it as a compliment if I am denied action. It means I am up 5k and I am cashing out and going to the casino next door and right back at it.
     
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  4. DeMango, Nov 16, 2011

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Before the greatest shooter in the universe hijacked this thread, we were discussing the failure of the event. My question is: Did you end up on one of those tables considered unplayable by RFB1? And therefore your throws were random or did you have a good table but just sucked?
     
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  5. $nakeEye$, Nov 16, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Absolutely not -

    This particular table ( 07-CR-07 @ ShowBoat Casino, AC ) - was the same table that I hit 4 Fire Bet #'s approx. 1 month or so ago,

    Linda hit 5 Fire Bet #'s on this table approx 3 weeks ago -

    And BigBen hit 5 Fire Bet #'s on this table approx 4- 6 weeks ago -

    Unfortunately, we or I, anyhow, can not blame our pissy poor performance on the table, the dice, pit pressure - or any other outside elements or influence -

    We, for the most part , just totally sucked !

    Another possibility I believe could very well be a cause is each one of us had a mental attitude that we " needed to perform to the best of our abilities " -

    And as a result some, many , all of us - to one degree or another -

    Exerted undue pressure on ourselves -

    The pit and crew were more than accomadating -

    Even to go as far as to move the on/off marker from the corner to center table to not interfere with the 1 or more shooters who were aiming for corner at the south end of the table ( stick right ) -

    Also, 3 or 4 shooters rotated in turn to SL1 position to shoot -

    Overall, we could not have asked for more ideal table conditions !
     
    #185
  6. DeMango, Nov 17, 2011

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Snake Eyes;
    Over on the Voo Doo Board, Heavy has posted an excellent article on his efforts at group/team play. Super Rick is also posting a lot of wisdom. Instead of certain people getting their panties in a wad, please listen to the accumulated wisdom. As long as the High Priest stays out of things of course!
     
    #186
  7. $nakeEye$, Nov 17, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    What's the URL ?
     
    #187
  8. $nakeEye$, Nov 18, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Message received and read -

    Very, very interesting and most informative -

    Some familiar names - different views / attitudes -

    Thanks for the heads-up - give my best to your buddy, 44 !
     
    #188
  9. epenak, Nov 20, 2011

    epenak

    epenak Member

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    Talking about what is illegal tickles my fancy.

    In NJ, craps is governed by statutes. The law says that a player has to toss the dice and those dice have to hit the wall on the far side of the table. (I am paraphrasing)

    So a throw that causes the dice to not hit the wall could be considered a violation of NJ gaming laws. My first trip to AC comes this Xmas, so I'll find out if they throw me in jail with my short tosses. Unlike G7, mine are accidental.

    I have been trying to find the controlling regulations for Nevada craps but have not yet been successful. According to Yuri Konoenko, Wynn Casinos invented the modern craps game in the the 30's, so it is possible that craps is governed entirely by casino rules. I'll keep looking.

    As far as BJ, during the beginning of the card counting days, card counting and BJ teams were often created ahead of the casinos' own rules. But, a violation of a casino rule is only that, a rule violation. It was not illegal to count cards or to form teams to take advantage of the BJ deck, it was merely a casino rule violation. The biggest penalty for breaking the rules was to be banned from playing at a casino, or all the casinos of a particular company.

    Now, the banning process has been incorporated into statute. If you get banned, the casino can apply to the state to have you placed on a blacklist that bans you from all gaming in the state.

    As a side note, in October, a one of the big casinos filed suit against a team of craps shooters (I think it was an asian casino, but I can't remember now). They claimed that the team was illegally sliding the dice. (G7 may be familiar with dice sliding b/c it is a skill used in private games where there is no textured back wall, often just a piece of wool blanket propped against a wall. I say G7 should be familiar because most of the private craps games I saw were in the military barracks of the 60's. I assume that the game still is played wherever the soldier lives now. I'm not saying g7 slides dice, btw ;-} ) Anyway, this team of shooters would distract the dealers, the boxman and particularly the stickman by throwing in late bets and trying to buy in just as the shooter was preparing to throw the dice. With the stickman distracted, the shooter would toss the dice so that one of them slid against the wall position on the six and the other die bounced normally. Knowing what that one of the die is a six allowed the team to bet heavily enough to walk out w/ over $700k.

    From my reading of the NJ statues, it is possible that this type of dice sliding might be legal in AC.

    Ooh, look. Everybody has dozed off .... <grin>

    And while I'm at it, I like g7's chutzpah just as much as I like $nakeEye$' etiquette.
     
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  10. $nakeEye$, Nov 20, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    epenak -

    The short answer to your question re: dice sliding in NJ - the legality there-of - NO -

    Also when you come here take particular note of some vacant tables at various casinos -

    Take particular note of the trip wire running from stick dealer position to boxman position -

    This device is not prevelant in ALL casinos - it is the " exception " more than the rule -

    However , it IS there ! - So BEWARE !

    I believe that BasicStrategy777 a while ago sent me a link to the NJ casino rules / regulations -

    In his link you will find all the answers that you need -

    If you can not find it - contact him -

    Although at times he can be an - ornery ole' cuss - he is quite knowledgable and accomadating !
     
    #190
  11. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 20, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    Epenak,
    I am familiar with the technique you are talking about and I actually posted a similar notion on a previous thread about trying to control one die short of the wall and letting the other hit the wall and taking the odds. Much like you are describing. When I was in Vegas I was going to pay for a session at Golden touch and have a technique looked at by one of the best ever. I also was going to share my thoughts on this strat and if there was any advise on it but I ended up having way to good of a time and was up big in every casino I played in for 5 days and did not want to mess up a good thing.

    I wanted to try this strat out when I saw a guy who was clearly aiming one die and not caring about the other one in Vegas last Feb. He was trying to keep the right die on avis and letting the left die fly wildly out of his hand and it was obvious what he was doing. He did not win a ton of money but seemed to be holding his own on his rolls.

    And on the fact of dice sliding in AC being legal. Let me tell you if you are doing it and loosing its ok. When you start winning thats when its a problem. All of AC and old Vegas on Fremont St. have short leashes when you are doing something "out of the norm" and winning. I have found Bellagio is the most accepting when it comes to dice settors and advantage rolls. Tip the dealers 10% of each win and they treated me well.
     
    #191
  12. kaysirtap, Nov 20, 2011

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    I have a feeling epenak has already read this, but whatever...

    I have pasted an excerpt of the relevant section in reply #179 of this thread along with a link, which is found here:

    Reply #179

    but here is the direct link again:

    NJ Casino Control Commission, Chapter 47
     
    #192
  13. epenak, Nov 20, 2011

    epenak

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    Kaysirtap,

    Thanks for reposting the link. You are correct, I have read the reg and it is my opinion, stinking as it may be, as I stated in my posting. The reg leaves the determination of what is a prohibited throw to the dealers at the table. Each state is entitled to have their own courts determine what their laws say and how they can be enforced. I forget who said it, but some authority somewhere once said: "the law is what I say it is." Or was that the Red Queen?

    I went back and read your old posting. That included text about the invalidation of throw. I was actually referring to the previous reg:

    19:47-1.8 Throw of the dice
    Upon selection of the dice, the shooter shall make a Pass or Don't Pass Bet after which he shall throw the two selected dice so that they leave his hand simultaneously and in a manner calculated to cause them to strike the end of the table farthest from him.


    It is always appropriate to reread legal texts to discover the subtle nuances of the language. Here, I see that I was WRONG! The reg does not require the dice to strike the far wall per se. Instead, it requires the throw to be calculated to cause the dice to strike the wall. If I'm trying to hit the wall and fall short, that should count as a valid throw. It is the dealer's discretion to determine the calculation, of course, but there's a lot of wiggle room there.
     
    #193
  14. epenak, Nov 20, 2011

    epenak

    epenak Member

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    $$ and G7,

    For the record, I don't have the skill or intention to slide the dice in AC or any other venue. Nor do I encourage anybody else to do so.

    But I will issue my own APB for the tripwire in AC in December. I have read about it but never noticed one in person.

    I am an old random shooter who is trying to re-train. Unfortunately, I have this opposing thumb that keeps wanting to push through the dice.

    On my earlier post I misspelled a name. It should be Yuri Kononenko. He claims to be the first person to write seriously about influencing the dice.
     
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  15. Southern-Comfort, Nov 20, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Thats easy to fix. Press your thumb onto the knuckle of its neighboring finger.
     
    #195
  16. Southern-Comfort, Nov 20, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Been a day. I was thinking of the pinky instead of the thumb, Not really sure what to do to retrain a thumb. What grip do you use?
     
    #196
  17. epenak, Nov 20, 2011

    epenak

    epenak Member

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    I just found the quote feature! Neato.

    Anyway the grips I commonly use are the standard 3 fingers on the front opposite the thumb, right handed. At times I find I can move the digits from the tops of the die, to the middle and then to the very bottom of the die when I want more spin. My fingers are not very long, which may be a factor. I have to be very careful that the contact of the index and ring fingers is similar. When my thumb decides to get involved (over=thinking, muscle spasm, finger position or whatever) I have to give up on that grip. Then I use a 4 finger or 5 finger pincer grip. If that doesn't work, then I switch to the same grips on the left hand. This is all on my practice rig.

    Any suggestions?
     
    #197
  18. Southern-Comfort, Nov 20, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Ok, let's try this.. its something I suggested someone try last winter I believe, and it may help with your problem. It may not be your thiumb pushing, it may be your figers pressing too hard. Take a pair af dice and try to hold thing without the middle finger involved at all. Instead, hold the dice with your forefinger and ring fingers on the top corners of the front of the dice, and your thumb about halfway down the back. The idea is to train those two front fingers to press sideways instead of backward. Once you can pick them up that way, try throwing a couple times like that to make sure the front fingers are not forgetting their jobs. This is NOT a good throwing grip.. do not EVER try using it at the tables unless you just want random rolls.
    Once you have the fingers taught their roll, get the middle finger back in, the end result is a two finger tong grip with stablizers.. the other two fingers not pressing the dice, rather squeezing the middle finger.
     
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  19. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 22, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I suspect the reason for the "calculated" verbiage is to account for dice hitting obstructions, like chips, and not hitting the wall because of them. Absent contact with such obstructions I think a failure to hit the wall shows the shooter's calculation is faulty.

    As for the wiggle room, I do not think there is all that much. An occasional short roll rarely gets more than a request to hit the wall, and in many cases not even that. Consistent short rolls get you banned from shooting, however -- assuming the crew is doing its job, of course.
     
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  20. $nakeEye$, Nov 22, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Like in baseball - 1 - 2 - 3 strikes and you are out !

    Sorry G7 - REALITY - a fact of life AND craps !!!!!!!!!!!
     
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