Found 100 Cancelled Casino Dice on eBay

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by TG Parker, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    TG Parker,

    A couple of years back, I tried the Salt thing & could not get the water Density high enough to Float the Dice.

    As I recall, the Density of Cellulose Acetate was Greater than that of salt Saturated
    water, so I did not persue it further. Will try again, with Epson Salt.

    eagleeye2
     
    #21
  2. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    Here's a totally "quick and dirty" YouTube showing the results with Epsom Salts. You need to use boiling water and a lot of Epsom Salts. It's simple, basic "high-school" principles of Psychics, Buoyancy, and Gravity. The problem with the Caliper is that I might have not adjusted it properly and "thrown" the results. With the salt water method you can't "throw" the results. Enjoy!

     
    #22
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  3. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    TG Parker,

    Good display, I will try the salt water technique.

    Did you only place the smaller Dark Red Dice in the Salt Water & Spin Them?

    The smaller Dark Red Dice were the ones that Exhibited Significant BIAS on my Dice Balancing Caliper, they ought to show Bias in the Salt Water also.

    eagleeye2

    Your Video seems to have a Mix in the pot.

    eagleeye2
     
    #23
  4. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    I confess I wasn't very systematic. A proper study would be to roll each dice 7, 9, or 11 times (an odd number.) and if a particular number came up more than 50% of the time then you would have definite evidence of imbalance and bias. I was in a hurry. Next time I'll be more organized. My "Dice Soup" consisted of both the large" red dice, the smaller dark red dice, and the smaller light red dice. Even with my "sloppy", "messy", "quick and dirty" experiment, there seemed to be a good random distribution.

    As far as I am concerned. At this moment, ALL the dice in the lot that I bought except the two that were physically damaged are perfectly ok for practice dice.

    Like I said when I have some more free time, I'll perform a more systematic and "scientific" experiment and I'll post my results to you.

    Please feel free to keep me posted with your results.

    TY!

    All the best!

    TG
     
    #24
  5. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    TG Parker,
    I jumped in, purchasing one pound of Epsom Salt , or "Magnesium Sulfate"

    This is much heavier than common Salt, yet it took 7/8 of a Pound of in, a Medium Beer Glass, that started out only 2/3 full of HOT Water, to get the Dice to Float.

    I evaluated all three Dice varieties that I got in the 100 piece lot. I view results as skeptical, for the following reasons:

    1) To get the best results, each of the Dice would be Just at their ZERO Gravity Point within the Epson Salt & Water. In the example Video, the Dice were Floating & when depressed, popped back up rapidly. Rotating such Dice thus requires displacement of solution for that amount floating just above the surface, thus not in the "Ideal ZERO Gravity Point" that is desired to minimize friction etc..

    2) To get the Die to "Float" requires significant Specific Gravity & thus Significant Viscosity when compared to water. This presents significant resistance to rotation that is required to allow gravity, to do it's thing, not good for evaluation.

    3) I took the Small Dark Red Dice & slowly added HOT water to the point that I achieved the Zero Gravity Point for the Die. This enabled the Die to essentially FLOAT within the solution.
    Under the conditions above, I failed to come up with a method to Spin the Dice, etc.

    I did get Creative, however, using the following technique:

    Place the Glass with Water & "Magnesium Sulfate" solution balanced just at the Ideal ZERO Gravity Point of the DIE, in the Microwave. Microwave the solution until it initiates Rapid Boiling. This generates rapid bubbles & violently Spins the Die in the solution.

    Cut Microwave energy & allow the Die to settle suspended or just dropping slowly. Using this technique, the Small Dark Red Die nearly always settled with the (1) face upward, verifying it's (1 ~ 6) BIAS, just as the Dice Balancing Caliper did previously.

    I next placed the Large Light Red Die in this solution & repeated the test, numerous Faces settled Face up, essentially confirming that this Die was NOT Significantly BIASED!

    Lastly, I placed the small Light Colored Die in the solution & to my SHOCK, it settled rather rapidly to the Bottom of the Glass. This indicated that it's Density was GREATER than that of the other two DICE.

    As I had used the full pound of Epsom Salt during various trials, I could not get it to it's Zero Gravity Point, & gave up.

    Conclusion, the Epson Salt Evaluation (Table or Rock Salt will not reach sufficient Gravity to Float the Dice), is very Difficult & Cumbersome to Conduct, Offers but Poor results, is totally unfit to evaluate Casino Dice for Balance & I herewith dismiss it as but a Pipe Dream!

    The existing Dice Balancing Caliper, when properly utilized performs admirably.

    eagleeye2



    "Magnesuim Sulfate"
     
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  6. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 20, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    I have posted my study of Bad Dice at one particular Indian casino in the NW many times on this site here and part 2 here and other sites.

    People who infrequently play Craps, like a certain Dice Guru in Tyler Texas who only perhaps plays six times a year, totally deny that bias dice exist and then goes on the war path with anyone who claims they do. Others who have a Romantic View of the Casinos and Craps also deny that dice can be bias, and then there are those who simply believe that the dice are 'HOLY OBJECTS' and there for cannot be corrupted as I am claiming they are. Whatever... People like that just believe what they want.

    Those who play Craps frequently here in Vegas know that the dice are bias. It is not question but a fact, and it is often "how bias are the dice and to what direction?" becomes the question. This is info that a few of us keep and share among ourselves, and we work hard to get it.

    I pick up high rollers all the time, as an Uber Driver, from the Air Port or the leer jet center. We talk, and I can tell you that they all have seen Craps over the years become a loser game. None of them can get much of a roll going these days, and often the seven comes to soon to get in to any profit reaping situation. Playing the Don'ts is a better game, and many have told me that quite a few High Rollers have gone DARKSIDE. Even still, it is a grind. Ill never forget when I saw some cowboy high roller at Tropicana yelling, "come-on Seven Out!" as he rolled the dice and had a large bet on the Don't pass. Oh, he won.

    Many casinos have taken out the All, Tall and Small bet because the players where winning them to much. Yeah, those hard to hit Craps numbers roll more frequent than the casinos care to admit they do. The unintended consequences of bias dice! Oh, some casinos now have watered down the All Tall and Small to 30|150|30 from the 32|175|32 Just as the firebet also got watered down to 25|150|250 from the 25|250|1000 too. One casino on The Strip watered down the Horn bets!!!! Too many horn hits with the dice!

    Some casinos now require a passline bet to play the All Tall and Small bet. Why? because guys figured out that the dice where rolling LOTS of craps, making the bet easy to win, so they only play the Bonus bet and nothing else.

    Some casinos now have the Don't Pass as a very thin line above the large Passline. The Don't come box is so small that the chips hardly fit in the box. I suspect one day ill go out and see a table with NO DON'Ts on it, like Crappless Craps, and they will simply call it Craps and that is that.

    So, ...

    As I walk along The Strip, I see more and more Don't players these days. People have figured it out, they know the dice are cold and seem to stay that way. I have no idea why the DI community seems to deny this issue and sticks to the belief that the dice are fair and that they can shoot themselves some big profits. All I see from them is losses and curses as they seven-out way to fast to their liking.

    The casinos have changed a lot of 'untouchable holy objects' in the casino to fit their own needs.

    6:5 blackjack - casinos sell this that you get SIX for every Five, rather than Three for every Two! Only those who are math challenged fall for this
    triple zero Roulette
    bias dice on the Craps table
    Video Poker that recycles the discards back in to the draw to create a higher volatility. (not all machines, just single line games)
    (Oh, it is all legal too)

    Some games the casino cannot really alter or change, like Baccarat so they either make it so high to play it - 25 a hand min, or simply don't offer it. Many offer very high house edge and high volatility side bets with this game too.

    Other games, mostly the carnival card games, the casino is happy with. High volatility and over 5% house edge is just dandy with them.

    It is not cheating when there is no laws that the casino is breaking. Casinos can create any game they and call it whatever they want as long as it meets certain requirements from the State Regulators, and honestly those requirements are rather loose. When it comes to Craps Dice the only law on the books is that the dice be the same size on all faces - nothing about face weights or balance. When it comes to table games, all the casino has to do is file a paper with the Regulators that explain the changes and the odds/house edge and it is done. If you think any of the above is cheating, you go talk to the State Regulator or even a lawyer - and they all will tell you that it is LEGAL what was done and YOU HAVE NO CASE.

    When it comes to machines - a casino can put whatever they want on the floor and call it whatever they want to call it. As long as somewhere in the HELP screens or where the player can view how the game is operated that that the payouts and features are explained. Features not in the helps are NOT going to be in the game! Often players never read this stuff and many may think they are playing Video Poker that they are use to, but then find a feature that they thought was in the game is NOT in the game now. Opps, they got exposed to a higher volatility and thus less EV than they wanted. Casino says that the player should read the help screen before playing and decide if they want to play that game.

    People, stupid people, believe that the Government regulates the games to be fair. Truth is, the government only regulates the games as per State Law, and those laws are rather loose and very vague in some cases. Basically the laws say that winners and loser are random, not pre-determined by the casino, and machines have to have a minimum return rate to the players over the lifespan of the machine. The story of the Lion Share Slot at the MGM is a case of a machine with a progressive that the casino by law had to keep in play till someone hit it. It took 20 years for someone to finely hit the jackpot and the machine was retired. This story speaks to the lifespan of a machine and return rate. 20 years of probably 94% return rate on a slot, and nobody hitting the jackpot for that long, means that this machine brought in a lot of money for the casino, and in the end with its 2.4 million payout it achieved its return rate.

    The State mostly puts its focus on the accountants who go though the casino books to determine the tax and fees the casino will pay the State. Gaming enforcement agents are there to protect the casinos more than the public. Enforcement agents are mostly going after those who are cheating such as a dealer in collusion with a player, players who use devices to screw up machines, and players who bring in fake chips to cash-out. Gaming agents will show up to a casino if a player claims they won but the casino refuses to payout for bullshit reasons, and they will show up if a player calls in about a promotion that the casino won't honor or pull some sort of bate and switch on the player. Agents will also show up if a player calls and claims that the casino has rigged drawings so that certain high rollers win, and this has happened! Agents will show up if a player calls in about a dealer who is cheating, or a casino game that is being mismanaged or worked improperly as to how it is Stated it should work. Agents will not show up about bias dice, table games with lower payouts, machines that are missing features, and claims of being 'robbed' by high volatility and house edge slot and table games.

    Having said all of this...
    Snakebutt ask, "How can we win?"
    I won't tell anyone here the specific, but it does involve the following:
    1. Never assume anything about any game at anytime. Always check for changes and alterations.
    2. Do your due diligence and inspect the game in all its features. How the casino wants you to play the game may be different than how you win at the game.
    3. Always keep your eyes and ears open, but keep your mouth shut! You may see an aspect of the game that gives you a good shot at winning, or even an edge over the game.
    You decide...
    Play for fun or play for profit. Many here choose to play for fun, expecting to lose, but enjoying the casino and what they can get. If you play for fun, just realize that what you are doing and how you play is very different from those who play for profit. Those us of who play for profit play very differently from those who play for fun. Its two different mind-sets and views at work, and there is some cross over but there is also a lot that both types will do that is incompatible with each other.
     
    #26
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  7. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    I noticed that tweaking the amount of water to Epsom Salts gave different degrees of buoyancy. I can see how too much buoyancy might also affect the results. I like the idea of using a microwave to spin the dice. I will try to replicate your results...

    BTW, I noticed 4 different types of dice:

    1.) The larger dark red dice with "Frontier" on the "2" face with gold metallic foil serial number on the "6" face.
    2.) The larger dark red dice clear polished with "Frontier" on the "2" face with gold metallic foil serial number on the "6" face.
    3.) The smaller dark red dice with "Frontier Hotel - Las Vegas" on the "1" face and a gold/green metallic foil serial number on the "6" face.
    4.) The smaller light red dice with "Frontier Hotel - Las Vegas" on the "1" face and a silver metallic foil serial number on the "6" face.
     
    #27
  8. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 20, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    TG Parker...
    A lot of so claimed 'Uncancled dice' with famous casino names are made by dice manufactures with no connection to the casino. The dice actually used by the casino are bought typically from GPI and sent though secure shipping to the casino. The dice at the casino are High Security Items, and are locked up and secured so that only the on-duty casino manager can get them. Dealers, boxmen and even pitbosses don't have access to the Dice locker.

    Depending on how the casino has canceled the dice may or may not create a bias in the die.
     
    #28
  9. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    These dice were "cancelled" with a very light shallow circular "O" stamp on the "4" face.
     
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  10. Edward-ky, Dec 20, 2016

    Edward-ky

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    That will be never.
     
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  11. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 20, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    That sort of cancellation mark will have no effect on the bias inherent in the dice. However, I am sure the Fat Man in Tyler Texas will stomp up and down and claim it does. What the hell does he know? He only plays Craps six times a year.
     
    #31
  12. tabletop123, Dec 20, 2016

    tabletop123

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    Wrong! That will be Never, ever, ever! Lol
     
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  13. DeMango, Dec 20, 2016

    DeMango

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    To me, what TG ends up with, will be according to the skill set his Creator gave him, and the wisdom to apply it. As Ronald Reagan said so long ago about his Democratic friends: "They know so much that just isn't so". This can certainly be applied to dice gurus, some of whom post here, some of whom read, but don't post.

    So let us not prejudge the man, our latest shooting star.
     
    #33
  14. TG Parker, Dec 21, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    I actually feel sorry for Ronald Reagan. I think his hair dye must have leaked into his brain the poor guy. LOL

    Just goes to show that even an Alzheimer's sufferer and the (human) male lead in "Bedtime for Bonzo" can get elected president...

    Oh yes and he "thought" he fought in WW2.

    :):D:rolleyes:




     
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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  15. HornHighBLEVE, Dec 21, 2016

    HornHighBLEVE

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    ^That's uncalled for.
     
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  16. James Hall, Dec 21, 2016

    James Hall

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    yep quality rises to the top
     
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  17. TG Parker, Dec 21, 2016

    TG Parker

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    Ronald Reagan’s wartime lies: The president had quite a Brian Williams problem

    Reagan spent WW II in Hollywood. He told the Israeli prime minister he was at the liberation of Nazi death camps

    "...But Reagan’s fabrications also included whoppers about conflict zones reminiscent of those put forth by Williams and Clinton. During Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir’s November 1983 visit to the U.S., Reagan told Shamir that during his service in the U.S. Army film corps, he and fellow members of his unit personally shot footage of the Nazis’ concentration camps as they were liberated. Reagan would tell this story again to others, including Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal. But Reagan was never present at the camps’ liberation. Instead, he spent the war in Culver City, California, where he processed footage from the liberation of the camps.

    Reagan biographer Edmund Morris proposed an especially charitable explanation for Reagan’s misleading Holocaust claim, arguing that the images “so burned into his brain that later in life — quite understandably — he imagined he had been there at Ohrdruf and Buchenwald.” Like Williams’ mea culpa, in which he stated that he mistakenly “conflate[d]” one helicopter with another, Morris’ explanation stretches credulity. Just as it’s exceedingly difficult to see how someone could misremember such a searing episode as being fired upon in a war zone, it’s hard to believe that one could confuse viewing footage of Nazi death camps with actually being present at them.

    Not only did Reagan offer misleading accounts of his own experiences during the war; he also made embarrassing flubs about others’ experiences. In his 1981 inaugural address, Reagan told the gripping story of a World War I soldier, Martin Treptow, whom he inaccurately implied was buried in nearby Arlington National Cemetery. Two years later, Reagan found himself in hot water after New York Daily News scribe Lars-Erik Nelson looked into an account of heroism Reagan related during a Congressional Medal of Honor ceremony and discovered that there was no evidence the event ever occurred...."






    In the story, which J. David Woodard describes in his book “The America that Reagan Built,” a B-17 bomber came under fire in the course of a European bombing raid in World War II. With the plane rapidly losing altitude, the B-17 commander ordered his soldiers to evacuate the bomber. When all but one young soldier had left the bomber, the commander gripped the remaining soldier’s hand and said, “Never mind, son, we’ll ride it down together.”

    Nelson examined all 434 Medal of Honor cases and could not find any citation of the event Reagan described. But one reader told Nelson that the story bore similarities to a scene from the World War II-era film “A Wing and a Prayer,” while another claimed to have read it in the Reader’s Digest. White House Press Secretary Larry Speakes had his own response.

    “If you tell the same story five times, it’s true,” he said.
     
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  18. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    Even a monkey can find biased dice!

     
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  19. HornHighBLEVE, Dec 21, 2016

    HornHighBLEVE

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    Well for one thing this is the beginner craps forum.

    Besides the man being dead just reveals your disingenuous nature of being here...take your tired act back to the democratic underground. The card board party of promises and candidates.

    This is a craps forum.
     
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  20. PropBet, Dec 21, 2016

    PropBet

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    True Dat!
     
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