Found 100 Cancelled Casino Dice on eBay

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by TG Parker, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. TG Parker, Dec 14, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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  2. eagleeye2, Dec 19, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    TG Parker

    I took a chance, on your fantatic recommendation, as Practice consumes Dice rather quickly.

    Not Guaranteed, but the ""DICE that I received"" appear to have NEVER been played! Zero chips, Sharp Edges, Zero marks on PIPS, etc., shuld make them GREAT for Practice, assuming they are NOT way out of balance, will check some out tonight!

    DICE appear to be from TWO maufacturers, as some are slightly larger than others. In all cases, the Larger ones have "FRONTIER"" Stamped across the (2) Face, with the smaller ones having ""Frontier Hotel ~ Las Vegas"" stamped encircling the (1) PIP.

    The smaller DICE are of a darker Red, than are the larger ones, could proove very interesting?

    Strange but I have found Small, Medium & Large Circular Cancellation marks, all on the (4) face of the Dice.

    I assume that these were in Frontier's Inventory when the Casino Closed & HAVE ONLY RECENTLY BEEN RELEASED.

    Frontier Hotel History:

    ""The Frontier Hotel was the second resort that opened on the Las Vegas Strip and operated continuously from October 30, 1942 until it closed on July 16, 2007. The building was demolished on November 13, 2007. The land is now owned by Crown Resorts, which began construction on Alon Las Vegas in 2015 and plans to open in 2018.""

    Yes, these DICE have been around for quite some time, great hjistory there!

    eagleeye2
     
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  3. TG Parker, Dec 19, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    AWESOME! Glad you liked what you got.

    I noticed there were two sizes of dice also. I think one bunch are "Metric" 19mm and the other bunch are "US" 3/4".

    Why waste money on new dice when you're learning and practicing and more than half of the time the dice will be bouncing around all over the place and mostly landing on the floor.. I'd save the fancy schmancy "new" dice for when it matters.

    [​IMG]

    I tested the cancelled dice on my $65 caliper dice testing gizmo from Kardwell and they are just as off balance as my brand new Grade "A" Casino quality 3/4" Dice made in the USA by the "Bee" Playing Card Company of Cincinnati, OH a precursor to the Bicycle Playing Card Company of Cincinnati, OH aka the US Playing Card company of Cincinnati, OH.

    The "six" always tends to pendulum towards the bottom and the "one" towards the top.

    This is exactly how ALL other NEW Casino grade "A" dice behave.

    In other words, ALL Casino Dice are intentionally made off balance.

    For my immediate purposes I will use the cancelled dice. When I have reached the desired level of mastery, I will proceed to use my NEW Dice.





    Here's a little high school science project experiment for testing if your dice are "balanced".

    And you won't have to buy the $65 Kardwell Dice Balance testing Gizmo.

    Get a 6 or 8 oz glass of warm-hot water... keep adding tablespoons of table salt or Epsom's salt to the warm water in the glass and stir until the salt completely dissolves...keep dropping a die into the glass to see if the die will float. Somewhere between 6-9 tablespoons of salt the dice will begin to float.

    Spin the die, and watch which face of the die always comes to the top. In my test the "One" side was always on the top and the "Six" on the bottom.

    Guess what? If you test Brand New Fancy Schmancy Casino Grade "A" dice, they will demonstrate the same imbalance...

    Here are some YouTubes that demonstrate the process...





     
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  4. eagleeye2, Dec 19, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    TG Parker,

    As 3/4 Inch = 19.05 MM something does not seem to add up. Will mike the two sizes later tonight.

    eagleeye2
     
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  5. TG Parker, Dec 19, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    But exactly 19mm = 0.748 of an inch. Maybe the 3/4" are the larger dice and 19mm are the smaller.

    Well, I'm just a guessing. I really have no idea why a Casino would have two sizes of dice??? Maybe at a certain point in time they might have changed over from one size to another. Interesting.... hmmmm

    Anyway either size is good for practice...

    Please keep me posted what you find out.
     
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  6. Pressit, Dec 19, 2016

    Pressit

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    TGP

    Nice find, you would think with all the casinos that have been closed more of those canceled dice would make their way onto the market.
     
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  7. gargoil, Dec 19, 2016

    gargoil

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    Hey Bald Eagle, I found your cancelled brain on ebay. I paid to keep it there.
     
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  8. tabletop123, Dec 19, 2016

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Lol
     
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  9. eagleeye2, Dec 19, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    TG Parker,

    Here's the results of analysis of four (two small & two large) dice taken from the 100 Dice (discussed in the previous post) at random:

    DIE #1 & #2 (small) Diameter MM
    Across Face 1 ~ 6 . 19.14 & 19.13 MM
    Across Face 2 ~ 5 . 19.14 & 19.12 MM Weight 9.117 grams & 8.904 grams
    Across Face 3 ~ 4 . 19.15 & 19.12 MM

    DIE #3 & #4 (large) Diameter MM
    Across Face 1 ~ 6 . 20.17 & 20.20 MM
    Across Face 2 ~ 5 . 20.17 & 20.21 MM Weight 9.839 grams & 9.843 grams
    Across Face 3 ~ 4 . 20.18 & 20.21 MM

    Dice Balancing Caliper Evaluation:

    Dark Red (smaller) Dice ~ Judged Highly Unbalanced, upon spin testing settled with the (1) Face in the UP Position every time. Typically rocked back & forth as the Spin rate slowed & stopped.

    Light Red (larger) Dice ~ Judged to be Fairly Balanced, in that any of the three faces could appear up upon spin testing. Typically NO rocking back & forth as the Spin rate slowed & stopped. If one established a count of the Up Faces, the (1) face may appear at a slightly higher rate, but as the other faces also stopped UP & there was none of the "Rocking Back & Forth Exhibited" I considered them Fairly Balanced.

    Comparison of Dimensions & weights for Dice # 1 & 2 and # 3 & 4 were within relatively small variance, indicating good manufacturing practices.

    It's considered AMAZING that DICE manufactured some Ten + Years ago exhibited the characteristics described above.

    The most AMAZING thing is that the ""Dark Red"" Dice from 10 Years ago exhibit the same Characteristic Unbalance as Do Dark Red Dice Of Today!

    IMHO, this is a Direct Result of the Manufacturing Process i.e. Obvious Differential Cooling; Producing Differential Density, in the Dice From that particular Manufacturer. Unless you are Brain Dead (like some on this thread), draw your own conclusion & act accordingly!

    eagleeye2
     
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  10. DeMango, Dec 19, 2016

    DeMango

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    Very Interesting thread. Someone, ahem, should post the math on Wizard of Vegas forum.
     
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  11. $nakeEye$, Dec 19, 2016

    $nakeEye$

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    eagleeye2 -

    THANK YOU for your in depth study of these dice -

    Obviously THERE ARE biases which during the manufacturing process are created -

    With THAT in mind -

    HOW DOES ONE CAPITALIZE ON THIS ANOMALY ?

    I sincerely believe that THAT is THE question of the MOMENT in the Craps World today !

    $...eE..$
     
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  12. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    Awesome research... awesome report.

    My results re: the balancing were different than yours other than the dice all behaved the same. So maybe my testing is flawed, so I'm not going to argue that point, as I'm the noob.

    I'm guessing by what you're saying that aside from the minor defacing caused by the cancellation stamps and that most of the dice are not in any matching serialized sets or "sticks", these dice are functionally speaking every bit as good (or as bad) as brand new dice.

    In the batch I bought, I found 2 sets of 3 dice with matching serial numbers. and 10 sets of 2 dice with matching serial numbers.

    Out of the whole batch of 100 that I bought I found only 2 dice that were damaged and unusable.

    So, all things considered, do you feel that we both got our money's worth and that these dice are worth using for practice?
     
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  13. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    There's still quite a lot of cancelled dice for sale on eBay in small lots as "collectibles".

    Here's a nice stick of cancelled dice for $7.99 with Free shipping.

    "Cypress Bayou Casino Craps Dice Set Packaged Numbered Cancelled Used Paulson" http://r.ebay.com/R7AJHz

    [​IMG]

    Perhaps most of the cancelled dice were just collected and recycled into either new dice, toothbrushes, or whatever... Who knows? I guess it's just one of life's mysteries... lol :)

    For the same $7.99 however you can also buy a stick of 5 "brand new" Grade "A" Casino Dice.

    Bee Red Casino/ Craps dice Set http://r.ebay.com/jxgdUG

    I bought these as a control to compare the cancelled dice I bought and they are awesome.
    Enjoy! :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

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  15. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    TG Parker,

    Several years ago, I purchased several Sticks of ""New Casino Grade"" Craps Dice. They were stated to come from different Manufacturers, yet when analyzed; Two Sets Claimed to come from different Manufacturers,, were EXACTLY the SAME!

    I found that if the Wrappers were the same, the DICE inside Came from the same Manufacturer. Gold foil paper appears to be the most common Wrapper & it's likely that all Dice so wrapped , come from the same Manufacturing Facility, regardless of the BRAND Stamped on them.

    As to the 100 Dice I bought, I OBSERVED ZERO indication that they were EVER used in Casino Play. Being 10- Years Old & offered for sale by the 100's it's likely that they were in Frontier Casino's NEW DICE Inventory when it closed in 2007.

    As to use on one's Practice table, I view the larger Dice as equivalent to any DICE you can purchase today & good to use.

    Sorry, but I cannot say the same for the smaller Dark Red Colored Dice, as they demonstrated Considerable (6 ~ 1) Bias on my Dice Balancing Caliper. They could thus be used, in a longer term throwing study, to compare ON TABLE results of Fair Vs Biased Dice.

    eagleeye2
     
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  16. Pressit, Dec 20, 2016

    Pressit

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    18 months ago or so on a commercial web site they were selling unused dice from a closed casino in Reno, think it was Bills, Wild Bills, or something close to that. Picture perfect dice 10 sticks for $50. Or $1 per die. I knew I should have bought more as they soon were all gone, and interesting enough someone wiser than I must have bought all they had as he was selling them on eBay, and was making a tidy profit doing so. As they say, a day late, dollar short.
     
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  17. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    TG Parker,

    When you ran the Dice on your Balancing Caliper, did you see the Rocking Back & Forth on the Larger Dice, like in the link below?



    That "Rocking Back & Forth" ( when the SPIN Velocity has decreased to near ZERO) is IMHO, the Tell Tale Indication of Significant BIAS in a DIE!

    When I ran the Larger Dice on my Balancing Caliper, I saw only a slowing in Rotational Velocity, or "Spin", with one of the faces stopping on top; & all faces stopped there with NO Rocking Back & Forth, which is the OBVIOUS TELL of Significant BIAS in the DIE under review.

    Note that Proper Use of the Dice Balancing Caliper requires that the DIE is free to SPIN upon it's axis, with a minimum of friction. A dab of WD-40 applied to the Fulcrums of the Balancer will reduce friction to a minimum.

    TG Parker, re-run your Balance Test & see if you get the results mentioned above.

    Thanks,

    eagleeye2
     
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  18. TG Parker, Dec 20, 2016

    TG Parker

    TG Parker Member

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    I noticed the pendulum swing rocking back and forth as the die slowed down. Got similar results with the salt water test.

    I'll re-run my testing on a larger sample.... and get back to you.

    my count is 54 smaller dice with the round "Frontier Hotel - Las Vegas" on the "1" face - plus one damaged smaller dice, and 44 larger dice with "Frontier" on the "2" face - plus 1 damaged unusable large dice.

    So for argument's sake and assuming that your results are consistent throughout all 100 dice, then I ended up with 44 "good" dice out of the 100 I bought. So I might have bought 44 good practice dice for $0.58 each. That's still only $2.94 for a stick of 5 dice. Which is still a good deal.

    I'm going to test all the of the dice just to see how many of the dice are either in balance or out of balance.

    For practice dice I still got a good deal.

    As a strategy I'll start my "practice" sessions with the small dice first. When I can actually get my dice to land inside a 4" x 4" target @ 6', 9', and 12', then I'll move on to the larger and "better" dice...

    Thanks for ALL your awesome help and input.
     
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  19. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    TG Parker,

    I have only evaluated two large & two small Dice so far, but their Balance characteristics were consistant between them.

    I will seperate my dice into Large & Small, hoping to have at least 50% Large. Yes, they are a bargain for Practice Throwing @ that price.

    Also, I now have verifiable Biased Dice, which I could run a long tem evaluation on, to establish the NET Effect of that Bias, (# of throws prior to a (7) & % of 1 ~ 6 (7) outs Vs 2 ~ 5 & 3 ~ 4 (7) outs, when actually thrown on a Pratice Table.

    Previous sets of Dice that I have Purchased, were all Classified as FAIR, so I have not had obviouslly Biased Dice to use for verification of BIASED Vs Fair Dice, in extended use.

    Others on this thread, that wish to be able to compare Fair Vs biased Dice, should consider investing the $25 to obtain 100 of these nearly 10 Year old Dice (before they are gone) for long term comparative studiess.

    eagleeye2
     
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  20. eagleeye2, Dec 20, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    TG Parker,

    TG Parker,

    I organized my 100 Dice, with the following results:

    Large Light Red ~ 38 Pcs ~ I fared slightly poorer than you did
    Small Dark Red ~ 28 pCS
    New Find: Small Light Red ~ 34 Pcs

    I checked (2) of each of the above, with the following results:

    Large Red ~ Testing two additional such Dice, selected at random, failed to display indications of Bias; same as the first two, I judged these Dice to be Fair Dice.

    Small Dark Red ~ As previously, these Dice exhibited significant Bias, as upon Spinning them, they always ended with the (1) face up & they Rocked Back & Forth at that point where Rotational Velocity Decayed below that of a full rotation.

    New to the picture were Small Light Red Dice. These Dice also appeared Biased, but not to the extent of the Dark Red Dice, in that they appeared to decay without the significant Rocking, but generally settling with the (1) face up & the (6) Face down.

    IMHO, all the small Dice were manufactured @ the same manufacturing Facility, with the Larger Red Dice being manufactured at a different manufacturing Facility.

    Indications are that these Dice were about 10 Years Old, yet some Exhibited BIAS, similar to what is found in Some of Today's Casino Dice.

    The Dice BIAS Mystery, has yet to be solved, but significant progress has been made!

    eagleeye2
     
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