For the Love of the Game

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by The Craps_Player, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. The Craps_Player, Dec 2, 2016

    The Craps_Player

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    Hi.

    I've had a look at this forum this evening, and I am thrilled, amazed and cheered by many of the comments I have read on various Threads. Most of them seem to degenerate into tit-for-tat comments between seasoned contributors to this site. Nevertheless, most entertaining.

    I thought I would post something regarding the game itself !!

    I love craps. I love being part of a table anywhere in the world, meeting different people from all walks of life, with stories to share.

    I also like winning, and I hate losing. I play when I'm happy, sad, or consumed by other thoughts (which is never a good thing as I tend to pay less attention to what I'm doing and end up not in control of my money on the table).

    I have played in most countries that offer the game: USA, United Kingdom (Called Dice), Macau, Australia, Singapore, Caribbean, Cruise Ships. The United Kingdom and Australia offer the best odds, paying triple on 12, 33 to 1 on Box Cars, 16 to 1 on Yo, 6.5 to 1 on Craps...you get the picture. Hard ways pay better as well. The only issue is that they only offer double odds behind. Singapore is the toughest, with the rule of "pick and roll", which for those that like to play and set the dice is a problem, as you can't do anything other than pick the dice up and roll them. Singapore has the largest single payout per outcome in my knowledge as well on a public table ($300,000 per outcome maximum payout). So, the maximum allowed on Box cars is $10,000 (for a 30-1 payout). (apparently Singapore Marina Bay Sands Casino now produces more income than Las Vegas Casinos combined).

    To me, the premise for the entire game is that those dice produce an outcome that is mutually exclusive each and every roll. Random. The casino's must also believe this as they still run the game, though in Asia it's not a popular game and as it requires a number of personnel to run it, Casinos don't have many tables (only 4 Casinos in Macau have one table, where Galaxy Casino used to have a 3/4 size one but removed it the same night a guy won HK$8 million (about US$1m).

    From this premise, the odds are not in the players favour. Apart from the low HA bets (and no HA bet), we all know the odds of playing for certain outcomes each roll, and we all have our basic strategies in how to wager and what we are comfortable with. All of this nevertheless comes down to the simple truth that the roll is mutually exclusive, and a seven comes when it decides to. It's what you do in between that is where the excitement is to be found.

    There is a way to play in Blackjack that reduces the house advantage as much as possible. Consistent play will ensure this. I have watched people play strict "book", but not capitalise on their betting strategy and therefore don't take advantage of winning streaks. The same it must be for Craps, where you can play to reduce to the house advantage as much as possible (which is number and full odds behind only - pass or don't pass). This isn't me. I play craps for the excitement. Not just to try and win money. If all I wanted to do was to earn money from the game, then I'd spend more time in my office working. That's got a much greater probability of success.

    So...it's something else. It's the pure thrill of the game. It's the fact that for the most part, there are a group of strangers from different walks of life, all rooting for the same outcome. Instead of 'world peace', we all want the 'point'.

    I don't even need to talk about session play and have to look back to see whether I'm up or down on the year. I know I've lost. But I'll keep playing.

    There's only one thing I can vouch for in the other threads I've read today: The Casinos want you to stay right there and keep playing. The longer you play, the house advantage will eventually catch up with you. They want you to come back. They will throw a whole load of resources to make you come back. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't do so. And for me? I'll come back. Because I want to. Because I think it's a great game, and it's exciting. Do I want to Win? Sure!! I want to win. Will I win? Depends when the Seven comes......

    (Over in Vegas for most of April 2017, if any of you want to arrange a meet up to take over a table - I did this with another thread earlier this year, and there were some fantastic characters there!)
     
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  2. eagleeye2, Dec 2, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    The Craps Player,

    There is no shortage of CHARACTERS on this thread!

    eagleeye2
     
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  3. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 3, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    Dear The Craps Player,

    There are three camps on this board:
    1. Those who live in Casino Cities (like Las Vegas) and play day,
    2. Those who live in Non-Casino cities and play infrequently,
    3. and those who are trying to sell systems and methods to Craps players.
    Those who play everyday, like me, have to grind at the game with low volatility methods of play.
    Those who play infrequently use a high volatility method of play, and hope to go home rich.
    Those who hope to sell systems will just say anything and offer no proof that what they sell works.

    Then there is the Dice Control believers vs everyone else. I play everyday, talk to dealers and other players all over Las Vegas. There is no 'Dice Control' going on here at all. At best, it is just a fantasy wish that out of town visitors have to come to Las Vegas and roll themselves a huge win. It is a nice fantasy dream, but not reality. Those that believe in Dice Control tend to get very 'religious' about their belief, and no logic, reason or science will dissuade them their belief, and they are generally unpleasant to be around, dealers hate them and when they start taking forever to set the dice and short throwing the heat comes down on them hard, and then they get mad, the casino gets mad, then the 86'ing starts happening.

    Lastly, there is the bias dice claims. Sure, unregulated Tribal casinos, such as those in the North West, use unbalanced dice, why not - nobody can do anything about it. Here in Vegas the dice can get trendy, though I do see hot rolls and big wins from time to time, other times I see the dice colder than the dark side of Pluto. All I can say to anyone about Bias Dice is to watch the dice for a few shooters before jumping in. If the rolls look wonky to you, move on to another table or casino or play it if you think you can use what you see to your advantage.

    There is no method or system that will beat craps. Any advantage play will be what the casino gives you (points, loss rebates, comps equal to what you lost). Anyone who claims they have a system that beats craps is simply lying to you. Anyone who claims that any particular Dice setting and tossing method is 'Advantage Play' is blowing smoke up your poopshoot.

    There are two play styles that players on this board use:
    1. Playing the Do's (right side)
    2. Playing the Don'ts (dark side)
    The Do's players is the overwhelming majority of Craps players. It is a higher volatility play than the Don'ts, but it is far more exciting and thrilling. With the do's you bet little to win lots.

    The Don't players is a tiny, and silent, minority of Craps players. Don't players don't cheer with the Seven-Out happens, or when a Craps is rolled on the come-out roll. It is a lower volatility than the Do's where you are betting more to win less.

    The Casinos don't care how you play; just that you play. They got the built-in house edge, and that in the long run is all they need. If they can get you to make bad bets, then all the better.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  4. KokomoJoe4, Dec 3, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Excellent post TCP. You are obviously geographically versed.

    The game is one of streaks. You have got to catch one in the direction you are playing, and if you catch one going the other way, you probably should convert.

    Your discussion on the 'thrill of the game' is what I think ruins what might otherwise be many a smart player, who often gets too much out at risk too soon. However, as you say, we all play as we see fit, and this is as it should be.
     
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  5. The Craps_Player, Dec 4, 2016

    The Craps_Player

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    I guess I've played Craps wherever I have been where possible. I suppose I need to add Canada to the list, but keep Monte Carlo, Amsterdam and Venice (Europe isn't hot on Craps) off the list because I only played Roulette and Blackjack there.

    Smart Player I am not! Emotional, in it for the thrill of a larger win, to hit that streak...that's the game for me. If I were to play 'smart', then pass line with max odds and stop. That's not for me. I was reading one major contributor on another site regarding the casino rating on Craps, and there's much for me to learn there - I knew that they don't rate ODDS money on the craps, which means that only a decent pass line wager will get my average bet per 'hand' up. They want you to continuously play the Inside, the outside, the hardways, the bingo bets of AT/AS, or Firebets. Of course it loses eventually, as the House Advantage eats you up. But, for the 'out of towner' I can go for that variance - or streak hit. Trouble is, I have to remember to cash in and walk away. I usually do OK in Vegas when I force more control and walk after a period of time to protect winnings or minimise damage that I inflict upon myself. However, those 'tilt' times feature heavily in my style of play.

    If I played this game every day (however recently it feels that way, except it's in different continents...) then I would adopt a much stricter strategy and stick to 2-3 numbers only, and eek out a small win or minimise a loss session.

    When I come to Vegas, many of my friends don't understand how I can do it, and why I do it, especially when I'll go an haggle $10 off a pair of shoes for a 'deal' normally. I have one particular friend who would press wins consistently, with no fear, no question. A guy who will take a card on 16 against a dealer's 7 in Blackjack every time irrespective of the amount on the hand. He plays to win. I play because I also want to win, but I'll stand around for hours playing the game for the love of being there. As such, I don't tend to hit big streaks (in terms of pressing winning bets) as hard as he does. He just needs a larger capital stack in his pocket to ride out the game.

    Interestingly, when I've been down hard whilst playing in Vegas, I'll resort to sitting down at a Blackjack table to have a better chance of winning capital back. If I win, I'll go back to Craps. That suggests to me that I'm there to play for the thrill of it.
     
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  6. The Comeback Kid, Dec 4, 2016

    The Comeback Kid

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    Bravo!
    A very thoughtful piece Mr. Craps Player...
    indeed a breath of forum fresh air.
    You've captured the essence well.
    Best of luck to you.
    CBK
     
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  7. Dave G Ct, Dec 4, 2016

    Dave G Ct

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    I echo CBK' s comments!!
     
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  8. DeMango, Dec 5, 2016

    DeMango

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    Me and Dave are in agreement. Sign of end times.

    I do wonder, commenting on the Poopers Post, whether he thinks hinky dice can be profitable on the dark side?
     
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  9. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 5, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    It is hard to make profit even on the darkside with bad dice.

    The come-out sevens and elevens can be brutal. The Point, Seven-out also is a tough cause you cannot really make much on such a roll. Sometimes the dice seem to hit a lot of 4's and 10's, almost to sucker you in to laying the odds - and then will roll 4 or 10 and knock off your bet.

    Laying the line can again be rough as the dice may hit the outsides before the sevens shows, so no profits. So many times I see my Don't or Don't come travel to the 4 or 10, only to see again the 4 or 10 roll before the seven shows. Over and over it goes like that, and you wonder about the dice and how it will sucker in the darkside players to go all in on the lay - only to see it get sweep up by the house.

    I have seen players bet the YO on every single roll with such dice, or perma-bet the horn. It is a grind to play like that, and I am not really convinced that such a play is profitable with bad dice. I have seen 4 Aces rolled back to back, then next shooter 3 midnight's rolled back to back. It is those times you really wonder about the dice. When you see rolls like 7,3,11,4,7-out - over and over with no sixes or eights hit at all for shooter after shooter - it is rolls like that that make you really wonder about the dice.

    I was out with a out-of-town friend last night, a well educated and experienced Craps player and respected dice shooter, and we went many casinos on The Strip. It is the time of the Rodeo here, Cowboy Christmas, so Las Vegas is full cowboy and the visitors that come for the Rodeo are loaded! My friend who is very skeptical of any 'bias dice' claims not only saw the dice in action for himself, but tried to shoot the dice as well, and simply came to the conclusion that the dice are not fair - in that the casinos we visited that where FULL ON COWBOY where using bias dice. We ended up driving out the Boulder Highway to a locals casino where he found the dice where fair.

    I guess I really don't care if the members of this forum believe in 'bias dice' or not. I just invite you to come to Las Vegas and see for yourself. Everything that SuperRick has said in the past about how Las Vegas operates on Fight nights or events that draw in people who are loaded, is absolutely true. SR has lived here for a long time, and plays darn near everyday. He sees exactly what is going on and tells everyone who comes to Vegas, and on this forum, the straight truth.

    There are some tight sweaty casinos that I know of that permanently have bad dice. I have spoken as to what casinos these are in the past. My view is that they simply operate like the Las Vegas Strip clubs operate, in to sucker you in then take you for all they can get out of you. Sometimes I go to these casinos and do well on the don'ts, though I have been warned by the pitboss at one of these sucker joints to not make a habit of it.

    Vegas is really not the 'gamblers town' that it once was. People come here more for the events, conventions, food tourism (the foodies), destination weddings, and the parties. The Millennials (35 and under) hardly gamble at all, and they don't like slots. The Greatest Generation (WW2 Vets) is gone, and the boomers, who are the vast majority of casino players, are tight wads. THey come loaded for bear but then go play nickles! The casino simply cannot profit from gambling as it once could, and many casinos here are in bankruptcy, or in debt renegotiation. Vegas in my humble opinion is NOT the place for any serious Craps player to come to.

    Vegas is about money, mostly the money that the tourist and aspiring gamblers bring to this town. This city is like a high class whore, who will dress up all classy and nice; only to get out of you everything they can and give you as little as possible. This city lets you be as foolish as you want to be, and if you are foolish to play a high volatility method of betting at one of these sweat joints with shit dice, then this City and State will only say that it is YOUR responsibility to evaluate the game before you make a bet. As SR has said, the State Gaming Commission is here to protect the casinos, not the players. The only thing that is regulated about diced in this state is that they have to be equal sizes on all faces, however nothing about equal face weights as other State gaming commissions require. There are a lot of voodoo lawyers out there, and some on this forum, that will try and cite vague and ambiguous gambling laws, as to support that that the casinos cannot use bad dice, however unless the law is 'black and white' as to the specifics of the implementation, such as the dice must be equal sizes on all faces, then there is no fault to find. The state simply sees laws that are vague and ambiguous more as the intent of the legislators but not as a law itself, and nothing that can be adjudicated. However, if you think that the laws of Nevada protect you from bad dice, then that is on you! If you think you can bell-up to any ol' Craps table and will be dished out 5 fair dice, then that again is on you. If you lose your buy-in because the dice roll funky, THAT AGAIN IS ON YOU.

    Personally, I have been putting more time towards Baccarat than Craps these days. There is nothing the casinos can do to muck with the game, and the Chinese who come to play are very vigilant about how the casino handles the cards and shuffles. Chinese will not only refuse to play if they think the shoe has been tampered with, but will refuse to play at a casino if they even thing such a thing has happened. The Chinese community is loaded, and Las Vegas is out to entice them to come and play in their casinos, so they are doing everything possible to ensure the Chinese that baccarat is fair and the shoe is not loaded against them. And, as of December 1st, the Chinese national airline started direct flights from China to Las Vegas. It is expected that one million Chinese visitors will come from the Mainland China in 2017.

    There is what I think, then there is what you think - And then there is what really happens. The casinos don't give a shit what you or I think. They only give a shit about one thing: to beat you at the game you choose to play. The casino will use all means possible to beat you, even if the means may be unethical, but legal because there is no specific regulation or law that prohibits the means they employ to use to beat you with. Do you remember the Banksters on Wall Street who simply stole billions from us to line their own pockets? None of them went to jail because even though what they did was unethical, it was not illegal. I recommend to watch the movie Money Monster, it is how it really goes down despite what you and I think how it should go down.
     
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  10. DeMango, Dec 5, 2016

    DeMango

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    Great post there pooper, words to ponder and possibly profit from. Looking at the parking charges, I may have need of your driving services.
     
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  11. KokomoJoe4, Dec 5, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Gambling is easy to do but difficult to be successful at! Great post CPS.
     
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  12. TDVegas, Dec 5, 2016

    TDVegas

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    Many do not accept that thesis....and "difficult" might be too "light" a word.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
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  13. tabletop123, Dec 5, 2016

    tabletop123

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    Excellent post, Poop! TDVegas would NOT believe the type of dice that they are using at the two Casinos that I play at! Guess I shouldn't really complain because they ARE exploitable!

    When I see these guys betting $200 horn bets, & field bets, & consistently leave the Casino as Winners, it boggles the mind!

    Crap numbers, field numbers, & the crap numbers out numbering the 6/8's. As SnakeEyes stated: "Why play in a Indian Casino that employs THEIR OWN gaming commision?
     
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  14. TDVegas, Dec 5, 2016

    TDVegas

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    I think if you guys submit the roll data here, we can submit these numbers to a probabilities expert and I'm almost willing to guarantee that he will verify that the sequencing falls within an acceptable range for random (fair).....and not bias.

    One can certainly believe there is bias and bet the bias...no harm. If it's true, cha-ching. If not, you will probably lose making these high house edge bets.

    As one here who has recorded and posted pictures of MANY funky sequencing occurrences on the bubble....where our resident bias dice expert (H) has stated before that bubble craps dice are some of the fairest in Vegas....

    Shit happens.
     
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  15. DeMango, Dec 5, 2016

    DeMango

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    Well I certainly track my rolls, and I trust that with a PM from somebody here about who these perps are, I will track all the rolls, like SR.
     
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  16. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 5, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    SR tracks all of his play, and he plays nearly everyday in the Las Vegas casinos. When he says that XXX casino is running bad dice on the table, don't be a fool! Listen to him.
     
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  17. TDVegas, Dec 5, 2016

    TDVegas

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    Rick plays everyday? I could have sworn he says he does not play nearly everyday....not even close. Maybe twice a week?
     
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  18. Onautopilot, Dec 5, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Unless you can get your hands on a pair of dice that you suspect are bias, it will always just remain a suspicion.

    Tracking and recording rolls might make that suspicion more likely at some point when the sample size is large enough. But one individual will never accumulate a sample size large enough to make a determination, that in fact, the dice are "bogus".

    Also, there are too many variables.....different sets of dice, alternative dice to choose from, different casinos, and so on.

    But none of that should preclude one from acting on a suspicion.....I know I might, one of two ways, either try and exploit what I suspected, or get out of Dodge.
     
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  19. Dave G Ct, Dec 5, 2016

    Dave G Ct

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    Craps..

    I thought Baccarrat was basically plates betting either the shoe or player.So how could the casino influence a 50/50 game?
     
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  20. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 6, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    I have done this with canceled and un-canceled casino dice. I have posted the results here on this forum many times
    The guys who teach math and statistics as Portland State University, and how are avid craps players, say that 144 rolls is enough of a sample to see if there is any bias going on. I also recommend that you find the book, Craps by the numbers. It goes in to dice tracking and how many rolls you need to see if the dice are fair or not.
    When I track dice, I am careful to note: Time/Date:location:dice color and serial number. Most casinos use the two or three types of dice that they run though the tables. Sometimes the same serial numbers show up a week later on another table. Casinos don't want to spend a lot on dice, so they recycle them back in to the game over weeks or months.
    If you think you can exploit a bias that you see; go for it. I have a few methods that I use to profit on cold or cool trending dice that work well enough. I am not going to bust the casino with my method, nor even raise an eyebrow of the pitboss with my play. As Micky Crimm over at VPfree2 would say "the best exploit is one you can milk for years, and they welcome you back every time you play."
     
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016