Do you suspect the casino cheating at the craps table?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by Hardeight, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. Settingcanthurt, Jun 22, 2016

    Settingcanthurt

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    Eagleshit can you confirm you have not procreated?[/QUOTE]


    settingcanthurt,

    It's obvious from your Post, that you cannot COMPREHEND
    one of the BASIC Facts of Current Casino Practices, i.e. the frequent use of Biased Dice.

    FACT IS:
    Any Craps Player that would not monitor a Craps Table, to establish Casino Use of Straight, or Biased Dice, in TODAY's Casino Environment, happens to be a TOTAL AMATEUR Craps Player, period!

    Where do you fit???

    eagleeye2[/QUOTE]

    Any little eagleshits????
     
    #221
  2. hartzehn22, Jun 23, 2016

    hartzehn22

    hartzehn22 Member

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    Settingcanthurt- I'm not sure exactly what you mean by where do you fit?? Are you talking to me?

    Oh and just for the record - I very much believe in Bias dice but I don't think they are used all the time by all the casinos. I think some of the dice within a stick may be more bias then others and I think sometimes there are some very balanced dice mixed in with bias dice. So having said that, I always monitor a Craps table, check the dice and the layout prior to risking a bankroll of any kind. If the dice react the way I want them too and I'm seeing what I would normally expect than I will risk more money but that is only after I have a good sense of the table and the dice.

    Tonight was a perfect example of what I believe are super bias dice. I shot and I kid you not, 20 different rolls. I threw 16 seven outs shooting from the dark side. I had only 2 rolls where I got my point and the other 2 were a seven on the come out. Crazy bad ass darth vadar dice. I've been at this particular casino now for the past 3 weeks and these dice run cold for me (with the particular throw and die set that I like to use) which is fine as long as I am on the right side of the betting.

    In my opinion, it's ok to have bias dice but I don't think it fair to the unsuspecting gambler.

    Bias dice are like the Sheriff that pulls you over on that back country road. You show him lots of respect. Yes sir, no sir and you take what you can get and you get only what you deserve. You just have to respect them and try and not have expectations other than what they will give you depending on the dice set and type of throw. The first 20 rolls were from stick R with a certain set and then I decided to try a different position and a different type of throw all together and see what the dice would give me. To my surprise, I ended up hitting the ATS and my last 2 numbers were snake eyes and boxcars! Unfortunately, i didn't bet it (rats!) given my dark side play from earlier. I just might go ahead and try my DI luck again tomorrow, use the same throw tomorrow and see how it goes. Maybe I'll even win a few coins ;). playing the right side.
     
    #222
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  3. Settingcanthurt, Jun 23, 2016

    Settingcanthurt

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    I do not know how all that was part of my post. Somehow It misquoted.
    The only part i wrote was to Eagleshit. Asking if he had procreated?

    That being said I need to read your post. Scanning it, looks interesting.
    Regards
     
    #223
  4. Settingcanthurt, Jun 23, 2016

    Settingcanthurt

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    You may have missed this.
    http://www.crapsforum.com/threads/d...g-at-the-craps-table.1675/page-11#post-108613

    Having reread your post it seems to be less interesting then I anticipated.

    The thought of two biased dice, of 5, being used on a table, and the shooters each choosing two dice is mind boggling to say you could see bias.

    Without somehow tracking those exact two dice from the five. Assuming they are biased sevens which go's to the next shooter. And again, and again. It is not possible.

    Repeated 6-1 or 3-4 or whatever combination someone chooses does not mean the dice are biased.

    The chances of each shooter grabbing those same two dice (why would they try?) are very slim.

    Can there be 4 biased dice?? Biased how??? to show a 6? A1? Be real there would be repeated snake eyes or boxcars and they would be money makers.
    Choose whatever scenario you want to claim is biased and can be bet if you know it is.

    What people are seeing is random outcomes with or without perfect dice.

    I seriously doubt these dice can be weighted to influence landing on a side once they are tossed on a table. We could either see the weight or see the outcomes be inevitable.
     
    #224
  5. eagleeye2, Jun 23, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Settingcanthurt,

    Only a TRUE IDIOT, blames any deviation from Normal Dice Outcomes upon Randomness, DUH!

    Yes, there is a RANDOM factor in Casino Dice, BUT EVERY deviation from Normal Dice Outcomes, on a CRAPS TABLE, cannot be attributed to that RANDOMNESS.

    Randomness in CRAPS, by definition implies that ""Non Normal Events"" at a CRAPS Table, happen only RANDOMLY, not every time as you claim!

    You FAIL to Comprehend that the increase in (7's) that occurs with Biased Dice, is DIRECTLY Proportional to the degree of Unbalance or Bias in those very DICE!

    Also, that when Biased Dice are Employed, the increase in (7's) thrown on a CRAPS TABLE, is NOT RANDOM, but predictable and can be Mathematically Calculated.

    Listed below is a Mathematical Analysis of FredP's theoretical set of BIASED Dice.

    The following involves analysis of BIASED DICE, (As proposed by FredP) wherein One Die is Fully Balanced & the Second is Unbalanced such that 2 (3's) are rolled along with one each of 1, 2, 4, 5, & 6 in a 7 sequence, of DICE Throws.

    The analysis has nothing to do with Your Claims of Random B.S., wherein you can Make Up any Distribution of #'s that you wish, in your efforts to Deny the Reality of Biased Dice!

    Denying the Reality of TWO DICE in PLAY, in the game of CRAPS is LUDICROUS on your part!

    The following MATHEMATICS Cannot be PROVEN WRONG, despite your FLAWED efforts to do so!

    Yes, Settingcanthurt You too are a Mathematical IDIOT!

    Of Course with the Biased Dice you indicated, the distribution of throws is:
    1/7 = 1 ~ Vs 1/6 = 1 for the Balanced DIE!

    Thus the Balanced DIE has an EQUAL chance of landing with each of it's 6 FACES UP, producing #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6!

    The Biased DIE has the SIX #'s shown above PLUS an EXTRA # 3 SHOWING UP, in the 7 throws, that it takes to complete the sequence you set up.

    Now Freddie, there are TWO DIE used in CRAPS & that EXTRA 3, can only Match with the EQUAL Probabilities of #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 from DIE # 2 in your example.

    Using Mathematics, you can NULL OUT the 36 Combinations, consisting of DIE # 2, when combined with the #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6, of DIE #1.

    What you have left is THAT EXTRA PESKY #3, (from DIE # 1) which of Necessity can only Combine with #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 from DIE # 2; resulting in #'s 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9, when combining the TWO DIE used in CRAPS.

    Doing the Simplified Math, we have 6 / 36 or 1 in six or 0.166666666666667 % SEVENS with FULLY Balanced Dice.

    With the Biased Dice (AS SPECIFIED IN YOUR EXAMPLE) we have 6 / 36 + (1/7 * 1/6); or our BASE of 0.16667 Plus 1/42 or 0.02381 (For a CASINO TAKE INCREASE of 2.3581%) or a 7 hit rate of 0.19048 in your specified example.

    And eagleeye2's Generalized Proof that any unbalance in CASINO DICE Produces an increase in 7's over that of FULLY BALANCED DICE, has been proven valid!

    Sorry, Freddie, but that is MATHEMATICS that cannot be DENIED!

    eagleeye2
     
    #225
  6. Dr. Smith, Aug 13, 2017

    Dr. Smith

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    This is what I saw on a Norwegian cruse ship. I am not a gambler but every night I parked myself at the casino bar. After leaving one of our ports of call, the casino that night had some very fresh meat at the craps table. A young women, overweight, southern accent was whooping it up at the craps table as she was apparently having a good night. The following evening she was there once again hoping to repeat the previous evenings success. Very soon however, she was making an all together different sound than the whooping noises she had made on the night before.
    Now the sounds she made were more like, "Fucking shit!", "God damn it!" "FUCK!!", and "fuck it".
    That went on for a couple of hours. I think I saw her only once more after that. She must've been broke.
    What this scene got me thinking about was the movie Casino with Robert De Niro where a wealthy Asian man comes and wins a boat load of money and then tries to get out while the getting is good but Robert De Niro's character delays his departure and through some sort of shady shenanigans manages to get the Asian man to gamble again and then to lose all the money he previously won. So I thought do the Casinos allow a mark to have a run of good luck just to bait them into betting bigger and losing more and furthermore, do they control this run of good luck and bad luck through deceit?
     
    #226
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  7. DeMango, Aug 13, 2017

    DeMango

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    It's called variance. It is expected. And House edge. The casino wants you to play longer so the house edge catches up to you. Usually it does.
     
    #227
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  8. TDVegas, Aug 13, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Don't let Hollywood fool you.

    People win, people lose.

    Monday, good day. Tuesday bad day. It's called gambling, luck, variance.

    Norwegian Cruise lines would risk their entire existence if they decided to cheat at a game where they already have an advantange. Plus, jail time for whoever is in charge.

    Nope. What you witnessed happens everyday in casinos.
     
    #228
  9. Mssthis1, Aug 13, 2017

    Mssthis1

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    Casinos don't need to cheat. They could pay true odds on every craps bet with a brand new set of perfect dice after every roll and still make money. The casinos almost unlimited bankroll, the table limits, and most peoples miserable bankroll management skills ensure the casino will win.

    Look at the average Nevada casino hold that is published every month. It's usually in the 12% area even though most of the booked bets are a less than 2% house edge.
     
    #229
  10. eagleeye2, Aug 13, 2017

    eagleeye2

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    Mssthis1,

    Casino Drop is more like the 8% level, not the 12% level, that you post.

    But they must pay all Overhead Expenses, etc. from that level to get to their bottom line. Pressure to increase that bottom line is ever present!

    So, some enterprising Management Personnel will, at times,Take Advantage of Craps Players via emdployment of unbalanced Dice.

    Take it as you will, but the Knowledgeable Craps Player, will check for Unbalanced dice before risking his hard earned $$$, IMHO at least!

    eagleeye2
     
    #230
  11. Bases loaded, Aug 13, 2017

    Bases loaded

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    as always, I enjoy reading these resurrected posts.

    Back in the day the debate was more civil, and the threads stayed on topic.

    But the most crazy thing is the guy had 900 posts and got 2 likes!!
     
    #231
  12. eagleeye2, Aug 13, 2017

    eagleeye2

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    Dr. Smith, Chew on this!

    What I witnessed on the last TWO Cruises, that I was on (Yes, on two different Cruise Lines were involved) was as follows:

    1) On the First & Last day of the Cruise, Fair Dice were employed at their Craps table / tables

    2) On all days in between, by my count, Unbalanced Dice Favoring the (1) & (6) were employed.

    Take it as you wish, (Yes, Variance will be brought up by some here); but be very cautious when Playing CRAPS on Cruises on all but the First & last Days of those Cruises. I'd recommend the slow Grind of the Don't player if you must play Craps during that time.

    eagleeye2
     
    #232
  13. tabletop123, Aug 13, 2017

    tabletop123

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    Look at the surroundings! Excitement in the Air. Bells ringing, loud music. Scantily clad Coctail waitresses. No windows, or clocks on the walls.

    Everything in the Casino's is there for one purpose, & one purpose only.....To separate you from your cash. The longer that you play,, the more the house edge grinds away at your bankroll.
    That is one reason why I will only toss the dice no more than twice during any session. Is this advantage play? Of course not, but they get only two chances at a portion of my bankroll over a very small time frame.
    I am usually done with a session in under 30 minutes. Sometimes it's ten minutes if my first hand is successful.

    Pee, & flee! Shit, & hit. Hit, & run. The only way to play.
     
    #233
  14. betwthelines, Aug 13, 2017

    betwthelines

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    very true
    an exceedingly common fallacy but a fallacy nonetheless
    a very intuitive and exceedingly common fallacy also but a fallacy nonetheless...paying fair odds it is true that they would continue to win money from a big majority of individual players with their "miserable" bankrolls but the total dollar amount given to the other players would be mathematically expected to equal the take from the majority of players that lose...a casinos expectations regards the total handle, not just that against an individual player.
    with fair payouts and thus an edge of 0% their hold would likely continue to be not much different than 12%...but the hold, as now, is only one half of the equation...how much is paid out in chips at the cage is the other half.

    again with fair payouts this amount would be expected to equal the amount of the hold, not daily likely but long term.

    in short casinos would not be expected to profit with zero edge.

    -------------------​

    your points are all highly intuitive and thus totally understandable...but Probability Mathematics and thus craps is highly---amazingly actually---counter-intuitive.

    you can find several examples of this astounding counter-intuitiveness in any Probability 101 text.

    tom p
     
    #234
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  15. TDVegas, Aug 13, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Ever walk around a casino floor? Slot attendants, maintenance people, pit crews, dealers....among the many more working in front and behind the scenes?

    All guaranteed wagers, health insurance, 401K contributions, etc, etc.

    The casino does not just need to win...they need margin. The greater the margin, the better. Many casinos have gone bankrupt...including Station Casinos right here in Vegas. Yep...stock went from buyout @ $85/share to zero.

    It's not just a matter of winning more money than losing....they need a LOT of more money won. They won't help their cause by paying true odds on craps. 4 employees 24/7 manning that table ain't free.
     
    #235
  16. von duck, Aug 13, 2017

    von duck

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    We really don't know, WHAT measures a casino might take, to insure that they win. We also, do not know what is possible, with modern tech. When I was a horse player, I used to ask guys at the track or simulcast, "would you fix a race if you could"? To the man, the answer was always YES. I would always answer back, "well they can". I had more trust in the "old school guys in Vegas, than I do the new breed. The old guys knew, the money was going far, for long. The new guys seem to take it, too personal. Oh yeah, nice try again TD, very ominous birthday, don't you think.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  17. von duck, Aug 13, 2017

    von duck

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    Thank you TDVegas, this is the first time we've heard these things, TODAY ! !
     
    #237
  18. von duck, Aug 13, 2017

    von duck

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    Define "HOLD" TDVega, I mean Mssthis1.
     
    #238
  19. von duck, Aug 13, 2017

    von duck

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    Eagleeye2, if this is really you, Dr. Smith and Missthis1, I believe to be TD in disguise. Check out Dr.Smith's birthday.:confused::eek::D:cool:
     
    #239
  20. TDVegas, Aug 13, 2017

    TDVegas

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    Can anyone else tell me what the F*%# this guy is talking about?
    LOL...
     
    #240