Do you suspect the casino cheating at the craps table?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by Hardeight, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. eagleeye2, Jun 10, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Darkness,

    Consider Casino's are Constantly ""looking for an edge"" that will increase their TAKE!

    Everyone must comprehend one of the BASIC Facts of Current Casino CRAPS Practices, i.e. the frequent use of Biased Dice, to enhance their TAKE.

    FACT IS:
    Any Person that would not monitor a Craps Table, to establish Casino Use of Straight, or Biased Dice, in TODAY's Casino Environment, happens to be a TOTAL AMATEUR Craps Player, period!

    eagleeye2
     
    #181
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  2. Harley, Jun 10, 2016

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    SC - good to see you back .... but I would suggest you stop imagining and observe and verify that your casino is using fair and balanced dice
     
    #182
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  3. Southern-Comfort, Jun 10, 2016

    Southern-Comfort

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    Thanks for the welcome and the "helpful hint" Harley. Probably be another short stay but what the heck. As I recall, your tolerance for variation in a die is zero. That level of tolerance simply is unrealistic. There is always at least a slight variation no matter how much care is taken, So we can agree to disagree on whether the casino is intentionally creating/allowing a variance and also on how much variance is acceptable?
     
    #183
  4. Southern-Comfort, Jun 10, 2016

    Southern-Comfort

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    I should elaborate on my last post to Harley. I'm retired from management in big corporation America. I very well understand that and corporation will take advantage of any dirty little trick that they think they can get away with. The safety brake here is that casinos know that many players suspect that they play with fixed dice, so its not likely they would risk their "reputation" on a single pair of fixed dice being intentionally put into a game. That's not saying that in never ever happens. Corporat structures work like a dysfunctional family. Where DAD (upper management) says "no never cheat", they also send out a mixed message of "you better produce if you want your job". Now some individuals in middle management might take the change to impress upper ... but the casino will not order fixed dice. the casino will not alter dice. the casino will get rid of dice that are worn. *A* pit boss MIGHT save such and introduce them to play, but the casino will not. The casino MUST maintain an illusion of fairness (even though we all know its not actually playing a fair game). That's basically the situation.
     
    #184
  5. Harley, Jun 10, 2016

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Southern-Comfort - I disagree, I am also retired from management of Fortune 500 company... Corporate Greed blinds common sense - anything to meet Wall Street demands and to get that quarterly bonus check based on profit margins

    Also, My tolerance for variance is not Zero, otherwise I would never live in Vegas .... Plenty of fair dice out there including now most of the time at Caesars since they installed the Bonus bet ATS .... Small Variance is normal, however when the bias from unbalanced dice changes the math of the game - that variance is unacceptable
     
    #185
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  6. betwthelines, Jun 10, 2016

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    as another retiree from an f500 company, your above is fairly accurate but is not necessarily at odds with what SC was saying...maybe i read something into his post but he seemed to be saying that for "public consumption" or even for just middle, lower management & the worker bees consumption all communications from top management contains information that everything must be on the up-and-up and "our company must maintain the highest ethical standards" and blah, blah, blah...hell, my company even made signing off on annual "ethics" and other training mandatory...these annual requirements are primarily upper mgmt "covering their ass"...

    but the actual reality closer to the ground, where production is demanded, opens things up for hanky-panky as a matter of course or even as a matter of personal survival within the company...

    tom p
     
    #186
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  7. TDVegas, Jun 10, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    To have any confidence of bias and not simple variance...one would have to record an enormous amount of rolls. In lieu of not doing that and making a "determination" on a relatively small amount of rolls...these bias dice conspirators are doing nothing other than guessing it is bias dice---Simple guessing and nothing more, and that guess is based on nothing worthwhile.

    Nor is it credible.

    If anything, putting your energy into observing bias dice will take your focus away from the truly important things you need to do at the table---betting, bankroll management and being paid correctly.
     
    #187
  8. Sancho Panza, Jun 10, 2016

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

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    Any clues to look out for? Or specific places that are suspect?
     
    #188
  9. eagleeye2, Jun 10, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Sancho Panza,

    For those that want to LEARN, rather than accept current or past Casino Employee's B.S., as posted by the Casino Brain Trust, read on!

    Typical LIE from 7uwin, ""You claim to be able to detect this bias by logging rolls and determining that 7 is showing more than 1/6 rolls.

    I have NEVER posted, nor insinuated the above, as the LIAR 7uwin Posts!

    For starters, TWO dice make up the # shot, when playing CRAPS, which 7uwin attempts to ignore.

    One must ask, "Why Complicate analysis by dealing with the SUM of combinations of #'s, on TWO DICE, that add to 7, like 7uwin; LIES about me doing!

    Here's the mathematical way to rapidly detect Biased Dice in Play, in an actual Casino!

    1) Reduce things to the simplest mode.

    You can accomplish this by ignoring the SUM of # Combinations adding to 7's & focusing on the individual #'s. As 6~1 Bias has been the most prevalent Bias to date (a shift to 4~3 Bias appears to protect the Casino more) I will focus on it, but any other BIAS uses the same LOGIC presented below!

    Now, any # appears on a FAIR Die EXACTLY 1 in 6 throws, two dice in PLAY, any # appears on a set of FAIR Dice 1 in 3 throws & that is the KEY!

    You simply observe (No need to log on paper) the total # of 1's & 6's (on both dice) Vs # of throws. I mentally note this as follows ~ # Low # & # High # Vs # of rolls by a player. Noting that each player chooses from 5 DICE, all of which may not be Biased, (I typically feel that a 3 Biased Vs 2 Fair dice are employed), & therefore with every NEW Shooter, you must start any count over, due to dice change.

    For a single shooter & the same Dice, This could hypothetically proceed as follows:
    NOTE: Layout is ~ # 1'S ~ # 6'S ~ # Throws

    1, 0, 1
    1, 0, 2
    3, 0, 3
    3, 1, 4
    4, 1, 5
    4, 1, 6
    4, 1, 7
    5, 1, 8
    5, 1, 9

    Now, what would we have here?

    Well, we observed 5 1's in 9 throws of the Dice, when FAIR dice would have produced around 3 1's. The 5 1's observed, should have taken about 5 * 3 or 15 rolls of the dice, not 9.

    Prognosis, Highly Likely that 1~6 Biased Dice are in Play, with the above!

    Should your Total Count of any single # approach the Magic # of 3 Times the # of rolls, the Dice in Play are likely Fair for that #.

    The exact same technique can be used for; 3~4 & 2~5 Biased dice.

    When generating your Counts, it's best to make a note of the Dice Combination that produced the 7-Out for each shooter. Should you see say three out of four 7-Outs as 3-4, it's advisable to begin a Count of 3's & 4's Vs # of Rolls.

    eagleeye2
     
    #189
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  10. Sancho Panza, Jun 10, 2016

    Sancho Panza

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    Celluloid IS a plastic: "a tough flammable thermoplastic composed essentially of cellulose nitrate and camphor," according to Merriam-Webster.
     
    #190
  11. Southern-Comfort, Jun 10, 2016

    Southern-Comfort

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    pretty sure rudeboy meant crisloid, which is a form of bakelight (pre-plasticish) that dice were made from until plastic caught on.
     
    #191
  12. TDVegas, Jun 10, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    I can probably list my roll sequences over my last 5 sessions and the bias dice conspirators would likely scream "bloody bad dice"!! on all of them.

    It's simple variance. Nothing more.

    Ya know...you can take a pile of horse$hit and break it down, run a toothpick thru it and analyze it with your calipers....still horse$hit, not bias dice. There's no gold leaf in there.

    The other issue these conspirators have is they would have to alter their betting and numbers based on what they think is bias. If it isn't actually bias but short term variance...they have now changed their entire betting approach based on a false positive. I now know why these guys are pounding the table with fists when their 8-9-10 bets were switched to 4-5-6 because they thought the dice were biased...and in fact, the dice were fair. Now they are on the 4-5-6 and all they see are 8-9-10.

    Must be comical at the table watching this frustration.
     
    #192
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  13. eagleeye2, Jun 10, 2016

    eagleeye2

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    Only from the demented Mind of TDVegas, a Casino Employee!

    Dam, TDV, Quit Attempting to Mislead the poor folks here!

    It has been Mathematically Proven & Posted Right Here, that as long as Opposite Sides of a Die add to 7, that any Unbalance Whatsoever in a Die, Favors the Casino. in that it Produces an increased frequency of 7's over Straight or Balanced DICE, Period.

    Additionally, Any Player that would not monitor a Craps Table, to establish Casino Use of Straight, or Biased Dice, (in today's Casino Environment) would be a total amateur Craps Player.

    eagleey2
     
    #193
  14. Onautopilot, Jun 10, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    There are many different possible bias dice configurations....not all of them result in more sevens than expectation.

    Many of those possibilities would actually favor the player.

    Anyone stating that all bias dice configurations produce more sevens than expectation does not understand basic mathematics.
     
    #194
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  15. Harley, Jun 10, 2016

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Whatever the form of plastic, Rudeboy's point is accurate .... For instance at Sam Town in Las Vegas, they use a very hard plastic die that could last for days and on other shifts employ a very soft die that chips very easy and is noticeable after a busy hour of normal use
     
    #195
  16. TDVegas, Jun 10, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    This is what happens when I spend a few hours in the casino, go to the sports book, watch a couple games, then play some craps, then back into the sports book, have a couple drinks at the Yardhouse and come home.....

    I do something stupid and respond to a blindeye posting.

    Hey, I won. That's some consolation. 10pm and still over 90 degrees. Going for a swim. Night all.
     
    #196
  17. eagleeye2, Jun 10, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    OMG<

    Onautopilot is a Hoot & 1/2...

    For one that feign's knowledge of Mathematics, Onautopilot has verified that he cannot COMPREHEND the 6th Grade Mathematics involved in the following PROOF that is Very Important to CRAPS Mathematics!

    ANSWER TO ~ Why do Opposite Sides of Casino Dice Add to "SEVEN"

    I will start with the BASICS:

    ODDS & Casino Pay-Outs (which include the Casino's Take or House Advantage, HA) are Statistically Calculated based upon the assumption that each side of both Dice in Play, has an EQUAL CHANCE of landing FACE UP, when thrown on a Craps Table.

    We then have what are called Fair, Balanced, Perfect, or Straight Dice. These Dice are the ones that one wants to play with, in most instances.

    In the game of Craps, two of these dice are thrown down a Craps Table & the SUM of the #'s appearing on the UP SIDE of each Die, are added together.

    Casino Dice have SIX (6) sides, or Faces, each containing one of the #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. Which when added together give us the #'s Two (2) to Twelve (12).

    I will dispense with the myriad of numbers & events which one can bet on in Craps, & only state here, that once a POINT has been established, throwing any SEVEN (7) results in all but don't bets being taken down thereby & surrendered to the casino.

    CORRECT ANSWER ~ Casino's Demand that Opposite SIDES of DICE ADD to (7), as with that configuration, whenever any weight Unbalance Occurs, it automatically INCREASES the Frequency of SEVENS that are thrown with those DICE!

    Thus as I have stated, Casino's Do Not Care if DICE are Unbalanced as any unbalance Favors the Casino.

    Verification FOLLOWS:
    ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ THEORETICAL NUMBER SHOWN ON DIE UP FACE
    (A) Die # 1 Random Numbers ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~1 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 2 ~ ~ ~ ~ 3 ~ ~ ~ ~ 4 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 5 ~ ~ ~ 6
    Properly Balanced Die

    (B) Theoretical Dist. 100 Throws ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 10 ~ ~ ~ ~ 10 ~ ~ ~ ~10~ ~ ~ ~10 ~ ~ ~ ~ 10 ~ ~ ~10
    (C) Die # 2 BIASED ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~40
    (D) Example here Heavy 6 Face ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~1 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~2 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~3 ~ ~ ~ ~ 4 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 5 ~ ~ ~ ~6

    In (A) above, we have DIE #1, producing random #'s from 1 to 6 as shown.
    `
    In (B) above, we have DIE # 2, producing a Highly Biased distribution as shown .

    Applying a bit of mathematics, to the 60 throws shown across (B) above we can NULL them out, leaving 40 #1's in (C) to match with the random #'s shown across (A) above, I.e. #'s 1 to 6.

    This absolutely results in Significantly more SEVENS than would occur if both Dice were Properly Balanced and NOT Weight Biased, as was the Die in (B) above, which produced the hypothetical Distribution (Dist.) shown across (B).

    This INCREASE in 7's results directly from opposite sides of a DIE adding to SEVEN!
    In the example above, More 7's, as, once we NULL them out, there is no longer any ADDITIVE #'s from the 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6, in (D) above. Thus none of the 40 (C) #'s can exceed 7, as we ADD only (1's) to the Random Distribution of #'s 1 to 6, in (A) above.

    This EXACT same INCREASE in (7'S) would occur if the 40 in (C) were attributed to unbalance
    resulting in faces 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 showing UP, due to HEAVIER Opposite Faces.

    Note: in addition to 7's, we will also have a corresponding increase in the SUM of the 40 EXTRA
    (1)'s added to the #'s 1, 2, 3,4,& 5 left from the Random Distribution, or in this case 2's, 3's, 4's,
    5's & 6's in the example shown above.

    The Casino, however, cares only about the Numerous EXTRA (7's) produced in this Biased Dice Example, as the #7, when thrown, TAKES DOWN all Do Bets on the Table in a throw of the Dice.

    Yes, Casino's Insist that Opposite Sides of a DIE add to SEVEN, as any Weight Unbalance
    whatsoever, favors the Casino, in that MORE than the Statistically Correct # of SEVENS will
    automatically occur, whenever there is a Weight UNBALANCE in the DICE!

    eagleeye2
     
    #197
  18. eagleeye2, Jun 10, 2016

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Superrick,

    Of Course He Does!

    eagleeye2
     
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  19. 7uwin

    7uwin Member

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    I'd pay good money to watch this. Best show in town and this is the entertainment capitol of the world.
     
    #199
  20. Harley, Jun 11, 2016

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Poor Heavy and all his sock puppets are so jealous that they have a thread like this one announcing their class the same day in July with only 2 posts -- both by Heavy compared to the near 2,000 posts on this thread (OAP - rounded it for you so that you can understand that is almost 1000 times more posts than Heavy's board)

    .... not to mention Jacob is happy this thread has over 21,000. views o_O

    And irishShitter, who lacks the ability to come up with original material, copied another popular thread here onto Heavy's board yesterday - Come Bets vs. Place Bets :rolleyes:
     
    #200
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