Dice coach

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by zmoney, Oct 28, 2011.

  1. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Thanks, DeMango, now that you have been exposed to the real truth, you can concentrate on how to win at the tables the 95% of the time you do not have the dice in hand. That could be really profitable as long as you remember that winning all those chips sitting in front of the boxman is very close to impossible especially when you buy in for $300.

    falcon
     
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  2. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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  3. DeMango, May 6, 2012

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Sorry Falcon, I try to play at empty tables, or as few chicken feeders as possible. Will we see you at the grand opening of Margaritaville on the 22nd?
     
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  4. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    You know what? I am sure that if we met at whereever, we would get along really well, have some laughs, great conversation, share some "war stories," some good food, and just enjoy.

    I have been watching the progress of the new Margaritaville, and we will just miss each other. I will be in Biloxi at the Beau from Wed. May 9th to Sat. May 12. Perhaps sometime in the near future we can make it happen. I will let you know when my next Biloxi trip will occur.

    falcon
     
    #124
  5. DeMango, May 6, 2012

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    I won't make the opening either, my request for vacation was denied for that week. A touch of the flu is coming on and I may be there the week prior or after.

    What times do you normally play at? For example when on the 9th would you be at the table?
     
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  6. Southern-Comfort, May 6, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Generally, the person seeking proof is the only one that can actually set the guidelines for what will prove it to them. so, what would prove it to you? What will it take? I know KST wants slow moting film of it happening, he won't get it though. At least not from me, my camera won't do slow motion, and he'd complain it was rigged anyway. How about you?
     
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  7. zmoney, May 6, 2012

    zmoney

    zmoney Member

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    I was kidding I just couldn't find a smile button. I was mostly saying that cause I imagine that's what falcon thinks I do for practice. And yikes I hope I'm never in your sights.

    Falcon still no desire to answer my questions?
     
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  8. Southern-Comfort, May 6, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    They've set a hard date? Two weeks ago the Grand was wanting to freebie me a room on that date. Wonder if its still available? Better go and look.
     
    #128
  9. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Sometimes bosses just do not know what the really important stuff is. I hope the flu is NOT in your near future. That is some horrible s**t. Please stay well!!

    I arrive by plane about 6 p.m. By the time the bus gets us to the hotel and we unwind and get settled, it is around 9 p.m. I will try to play at that time. Sometimes the tables are so crowded, I cannot get a place, so I have to wait. When I do play, my attention span usually only lasts for a max of two hours. If I reach my winning goal of about $350 to $500 I leave early. If I lose half my buy in or the table is totally choppy and unpredictable, I will play until bored or tired regardless of the up or down status.

    Unlike your play and because I do not toss the dice, I will not play when the tables are empty or if there are less than three players present. So in the a.m., I usually do not play and even in the early afternoons if there is no table action.

    falcon
     
    #129
  10. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    I do not mean to be repetitive, but I need a firm, sustainable intellectually accurate definition of "controlling" or "influencing."

    I understand the "motivation"; I do not read or see any meaningful objectives or goals that actually can demonstrate the mastery of learned skills. For example: The 7 is a number that is a winner at come out; it appears more often than any other number, however, much has been written and stated that one can "set" the dice for the 7. Therefore a meaningful measurable objective would be to toss three 7's back to back to back at come out at least four hands in ten. To me that would be reasonable if one considers themself a successful "controller."

    About three years ago, while I was on Schoblete's web site, an individual contacted me from CA stating that he had taken a good amount of super slow motion video of dice tossed by "controllers." He stated, and I did NOT see, that the "splashes" had destroyed the original intent of the dice and there was NO "control" in evidence. Slow motion filming would do more to disprove than to prove.

    falcon
     
    #130
  11. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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  12. Southern-Comfort, May 6, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    So basically, you are saying that you will accept no proof of influencing dice, only proof of controlling dice? I can throw three sevens all day long, just not when I want to. But I will have alot more chance of NOT throwing a single seven, because I cannot control, only set the sevens so they will be as far away as possible. That doesn't mean I will not hit a seven, just that I will hit it less often.
     
    #132
  13. falcon, May 6, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    I do not mean to be repetitive, but I need a firm, sustainable intellectually accurate definition of "controlling" or "influencing."

    I understand the "motivation"; I do not read or see any meaningful objectives or goals that actually can demonstrate the mastery of learned skills. For example: The 7 is a number that is a winner at come out; it appears more often than any other number, however, much has been written and stated that one can "set" the dice for the 7. Therefore a meaningful measurable objective would be to toss three 7's back to back to back at come out at least four hands in ten. To me that would be reasonable if one considers themself a successful "controller."

    falcon[/quote]
    So basically, you are saying that you will accept no proof of influencing dice, only proof of controlling dice? I can throw three sevens all day long, just not when I want to. But I will have alot more chance of NOT throwing a single seven, because I cannot control, only set the sevens so they will be as far away as possible. That doesn't mean I will not hit a seven, just that I will hit it less often.[/quote]

    Okay now you have provided a simple twist which I have never encountered before, and I need to be enlightened. First, I see NO hypocrasy in your last statement; I see a window which needs to be opened wider and further explored. What I am reading is that you and perhaps others are making a clear distinction between "controlling" and "influencing." If I am correct, do you believe dice "control" a la Schoblete is unachievable, or, in your frame of reference, achievable with more talent and lots more work?

    Allow me to devise a really simple test that, in my mind, might convince me that one could "influence" the dice.

    The buy in - $10,000

    The goal or objective - to win $2,000

    The test - to toss any four numbers other than a 7 after the point is established.

    The FO max is 10X

    The wager - $20 PL at come out then after the point is established Place $200 FO plus $200 across the board plus $20 horn. Please note that I am providing you with a five to one edge over the house to win something on any given roll of the dice with the exception of a 7 out. If one could really "influence" the dice, this should be a piece of cake.

    To me a very competent "DI" should be able to toss any four numbers without a 7 eight out of ten times after any point is established. After winning four bets, you take all the bets down including the FO bet. If one can do that, it would take only two and a half hands to complete the task and win $2,000. With only two setbacks in ten hands, one could become very "healthy."

    falcon
     
    #133
  14. kaysirtap, May 6, 2012

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    This can be achieved with completely random throws. If you were to witness this, how would you know if it was really the result of successful DI?
     
    #134
  15. Southern-Comfort, May 6, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    So basically, you are saying that you will accept no proof of influencing dice, only proof of controlling dice? I can throw three sevens all day long, just not when I want to. But I will have alot more chance of NOT throwing a single seven, because I cannot control, only set the sevens so they will be as far away as possible. That doesn't mean I will not hit a seven, just that I will hit it less often.[/quote]

    Okay now you have provided a simple twist which I have never encountered before, and I need to be enlightened. First, I see NO hypocrasy in your last statement; I see a window which needs to be opened wider and further explored. What I am reading is that you and perhaps others are making a clear distinction between "controlling" and "influencing." If I am correct, do you believe dice "control" a la Schoblete is unachievable, or, in your frame of reference, achievable with more talent and lots more work?

    Allow me to devise a really simple test that, in my mind, might convince me that one could "influence" the dice.

    The buy in - $10,000

    The goal or objective - to win $2,000

    The test - to toss any four numbers other than a 7 after the point is established.

    The FO max is 10X

    The wager - $20 PL at come out then after the point is established Place $200 FO plus $200 across the board plus $20 horn. Please note that I am providing you with a five to one edge over the house to win something on any given roll of the dice with the exception of a 7 out. If one could really "influence" the dice, this should be a piece of cake.

    To me a very competent "DI" should be able to toss any four numbers without a 7 eight out of ten times after any point is established. After winning four bets, you take all the bets down including the FO bet. If one can do that, it would take only two and a half hands to complete the task and win $2,000. With only two setbacks in ten hands, one could become very "healthy."

    falcon[/quote]
    Ok, let me see if this may help you out a little. I would define dice control as someone who is able to always, without exception, avoid the double pitch.
    Dice influencing would be cutting the average number of double pitches in half.
    Professional quality DI would still require cutting that half in half as well.
    Why do I put it all on the double pitches? Thats what bad throws bring you.
    I beive the double pitch has a 11.11% chance of being rolled randomly, for simplicity's sake lets call it 1 in 10.
    So a successful yet casual rate to determine influence would be to bring the down to 1 in 15 rolls.
    Professional about 1 in 17,5.. well call it 1 in 18.
    Now a PSO happens to everybody (I left a possibility oven for the controllers), so we'd have to establish how many "hands" on craps the onfluencer would throw to determine what his/her average actually is. say, 100 hands?
     
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  16. falcon, May 7, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Ok, let me see if this may help you out a little. I would define dice control as someone who is able to always, without exception, avoid the double pitch.
    Dice influencing would be cutting the average number of double pitches in half.
    Professional quality DI would still require cutting that half in half as well.
    Why do I put it all on the double pitches? Thats what bad throws bring you.
    I beive the double pitch has a 11.11% chance of being rolled randomly, for simplicity's sake lets call it 1 in 10.
    So a successful yet casual rate to determine influence would be to bring the down to 1 in 15 rolls.
    Professional about 1 in 17,5.. well call it 1 in 18.
    Now a PSO happens to everybody (I left a possibility oven for the controllers), so we'd have to establish how many "hands" on craps the onfluencer would throw to determine what his/her average actually is. say, 100 hands?[/quote]

    Excuse my ignorance; what is a "double pitch"? The "chicken feeder," ordinary dice "setter," and random dice "tosser" basically get the dice to the opposite end of the table any way they can. Sometimes the dice tumble, tumble and rotate, rotate, rebound and stop close to the wall, rebound hard off the wall, and never touch the bed first but directly bounce off the back wall. So without getting really technical explain the "double pitch."

    Next, what is a "bad throw"? I am not being picky here; I am trying to understand. -- Are all 7 outs "bad throws"? Are all throws that are not 7 outs "good" throws? What are all non-"double pitch" tosses that do not result in a 7 out called? Do "double pitch" throws result in a 7 out?

    Now let me go forward on your statistics from a gross yet simple analysis.

    1. Approximately 10% of the time "double pitch" tosses occur randomly; they are bad tosses (my words now) that result in a 7 out or perhaps a natural craps loser at come out. Therefore, approximately 90% of the time the tosses are NOT "double pitch" and will result in a good or neutral result and not a 7 out or natural craps loser.

    2. A good DI can reduce that 10% occurance to about 6.5%, so that the "good" tosses occur 93.5%.

    3. A "professional" DI can further reduce that 10% occurance to 5.5%, so that the "good" tosses happen at a rate 94.5%.

    The rest of my analysis will have to wait pending your answers and definitions of "bad" or "good" throws.

    However, determining one's "influencing" proficiency would require, statistically speaking, a much larger sample than 100 hands/participant. Batting averages, fielding percentages, field goal accuracy, free throw accuracy, passing completions/accuracy, yards/carry, yards/catch; ERA's; etc. use much larger attempts within a sample to determine a "valid" statistic that is relatively reliable.

    falcon
     
    #136
  17. falcon, May 7, 2012

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    kst: Based on the statistics provided by SC at 90% "good" throws vs 10% "double pitch" bad throws. I would agree with your assessment. In fact, my "test" using a $10,000 buy in to win $2,000 per session using only four tosses after the point is established @ two and one-half hands, would provide wins of ten's of thousands of $$ so often that one would never need to work again.

    My typical trip is for four days and three nights playing about six sessions per trip. If I averaged wins of $1,500 per session accounting for some minor losses of $3,600 total during the six sessions, I would leave with a whopping $9,000 tax free. Twelve trips would net me about $108,000/year.

    Inevitable??

    falcon
     
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  18. Southern-Comfort, May 7, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    I guess I probably need to type all this into notepad so I can just copy/paste it for the next person who doesn't understand the language of dice influencers. Both dice "on face" would be both dice ending up with the same symetry they were thrown from. (that term I did not use, but I mention it in here to go through the rest)
    A single pitch is a toss where both dice end up on the same axis they were trown from, but the "face" of one has turned one face more (or less) than the other.
    A double pitch is also both on the same axis, but one turned two faces as opposed to the other.
    That is important in that the main dice sets used after the comeout will have the same numbers on at least two faces, which means if one double pitches on that face, you will have a seven.
    Controlling a double pitch is easier than controlling if one die (or both) ends up off axis. That is why I am concentrating on the pitch to determine dice influence. Now that I think about it, I think dice "control" would need to have pitch under control as well.
    That being said, and going on to you question about if all sevens are the result of bad throws, the answer is no. There are sevens if a die goes off axis, which, if we define influence as only coutrolling double pitches, are sevens that we have to eat. 3-v and 2-v sets each have 1 set of sevens (2 sevens of the same number, different dice), 1 set of sevens with one die off axis, and 1 set with both die off axis, meaning 2/3 of the sevens I accept as possible with a good throw via dice "influence"
    The hardway set puts 2 sets of seven on axis, both are double pitches, and 1 set of sevens if both dice go off axis. As you can see the hardway set can bet better if someone is very proficient, but the 3-v and 2-v are more forgiving as one double pitch set results in a seven, but the other does not.
    Ummm did I get everything?
     
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  19. falcon, May 8, 2012

    falcon

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    You took a great deal of effort and time for your explanation, and I am sure that you covered the "double pitch" adequately, but for me the explanations do not visually register, and I would NOT ask anyone to post a video of what you have described.

    Is my analysis above 1., 2., & 3. correct? And would you agree with my assessment that 100 hands is too small a sample to be reliable?

    Lastly, concerning my "test," if you would consider yourself a "good DI," i.e., producing 93.5% "good" tosses, why not use the betting strategy I suggested to win very often and very large or at least buy in for $1,000 and reducing the bets to $154 (basically $25/number including the FO plus a $4.00 horn) and set the winning goal at $200 or 20% of the buy in?

    falcon
     
    #139
  20. Southern-Comfort, May 8, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Sounds about right. I guggested 100 hands because going higher (1,000 1,000,000?) would be unrealistic to have an individual just standing there and tossing. Also, not all hands in one long session, but rather over a period of days in an effort to test it over time. I suppose the best way would be to have a friend in survielence at a casino and just record actual casino play of the individual.
    Now, as for me. Different people use different grips because what works for one may not work for another. For example, I believe I remember SnakeEyes once mentioning that he uses the pincher grip (one finger and thumb) whereas his wife uses an underhand grip. I use a three finger grip because my hand shakes if I try a pincher grip. I also experiment with a Yuri grip variation, it can be a very good throw or a very bad one, hardly anythibng in between. Am I a "good DI"? Not when the hand is shaking. The three finger grip helps alot with that. I also have a short attention span at the tables and after about 30 - 45 minutes I find myself just throwing at the wall, so I have a small window of oppurtunity (which probably explains why I like downtown Vegas for playing craps). But during that window of oppurtunity, I do pretty good I'd say.
     
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