DI 's who need to step it up

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by Dave G Ct, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 4, 2016

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Mind if I chime in? I'll even contribute the price of admission.
    TwoCents.jpg
    Well, I do not understand. I have no problem with discussions of grips, throwing techniques, mechanical aids, or just dice influencing in general, and I doubt Tom or TDVegas do either. I will even give a pass to session/trip reports of phenomenal success attributing that success to DI (though I might compute the probability of that success being due to random chance if it does not require too much effort). However, I will challenge outright unsupported claims of long term success achieved at the expense of many hours of practice, and much mullah for instruction and equipment. I personally could not care less if such claims are true, but as a veteran player with a background in science (BS Chemistry) and logic (retired IT professional) I feel somewhat obligated to warn those with less experience that DI is not necessarily the rainbow leading to a pot of gold.
    TDVegas seems perfectly capable of defending himself so I will not speak for him. Nevertheless, I do stand with him on several points. Why are those who claim to have found the aforementioned rainbow posting here (and/or anywhere else for that matter) instead of following it with all haste? Why do they feel insulted or even care if anybody believes them? Why not simply say, "I have a chip tree and you don't!" and be done with it? IOW a successful DI's bank account should be its own reward.
    I smoked for 49 years. I had a mild heart attack 8½ years ago, re-evaluated the habit, and decided to give it up, but I always thought of myself as a "considerate" smoker. For example, I would step back from a card table during a shuffle to take a few puffs, and exhale away from dealers and other players at all tables. Please, no applause; it was simply a matter of "do unto others etc."
     
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  2. Bases loaded, Nov 4, 2016

    Bases loaded

    Bases loaded Member

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    The boards exist where only 1 way of thinking is tolerated.

    I believe Heavy and Mad Professor run sites that will not allow any descension from the DI ideology. Randies are only welcomed if they are ready to believe in DI.

    Wizard of Vegas is not very welcoming to DI's. They 'allow' the discussion but the regulars there are quick and harsh in 'debunking' anything a DI claims.

    Here the discussions seem to be open and free wheeling. I believe this board is better for that.
     
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  3. KokomoJoe4, Nov 4, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Who is doing this? Does this mean that the same person is presenting themselves as two or more different people?
     
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  4. KokomoJoe4, Nov 4, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Excellent post Gargoil. Live and let live. Speak if you wish. Opinions are opinions. All applies to both sides.
     
    #44
  5. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

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    My disbelief in DI simply is based on what I consider fairly easy to understand, common sense reasons....some may say "that is your opinion". True, but there are also facts in there. I have yet to see any facts from DI---even though some feel submitting their roll data qualifies it as Fact. Sorry, it's all 100% anecdotal. Perfectly well within your rights..but anecdotal.

    My thoughts...

    -the common sense of watching 2 dice bounce on a table and realizing no one can manipulate or influence those dice to get wanted combinations. Monopoly dice dropped from inches can not be influenced but two dice launched 8 feet and bouncing into rubberized pyramids can? Skill my @ss:confused:. Sorry.
    -the casinos welcome ALL DI players
    -as far as I know there are no professional craps players. They all have jobs.
    -there is no tour, no ranking, no bracelets, no skill (physical)
    -there are no attested DI's in the black book or even banned
    -the record holder for toss length is a woman from NJ (randie)
    -personal observation...no one is beating this game with dice control.
    -people can and do win...but I attribute that to simple luck.
    -there has been zero demonstration on the efficacy of DI

    I'll put my list up against any list of anecdotal claims from tdb...

    Demonstrate to me on the smallest of levels?...sure, take the bohunk. Hell, even if I call it luck (I promise to refrain from that), if you beat it---you've got some major, major DI bohunk credit. That will go a lot longer here than simple chest thumping "I'm a DI".

    Now, time for a second cup of coffee;)
     
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  6. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Now if ANY of the math guys here can reconcile these 2 statements...I'm all ears.
    8.4 SRR and STILL expects to lose?

    And while I can reconcile these 2 statements...it will not paint a pretty picture of tdb and his wagering acumen.

    I would offer that these are the type of statements that draw in the very thing that tdb complains about and feels is unwarranted in this forum as regards dice control.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016

  7. FredP

    FredP Member

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    Jacob, the admin guy, has said it's impossible to stop this completely because a person can create false IPs. Only those from the same IP could be stopped and he's not getting into the fray.
     
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  8. FredP

    FredP Member

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    Yup it's possible if it's not monitored, such as here.
     
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  9. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

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    There was a time I thought some might be using 2 ID's....but now I just don't think so.
     
    #49
  10. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

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    There probably is some truth in that...although I'm not tired.:) Blanket statements of superiority (James Hall, tdb) are going to get responses.
     
    #50
  11. gargoil, Nov 4, 2016

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    TDV as always you are entitled to your opinion. However what you stated above are all opinions and not facts. Just for play allow me to do this. I will flip the comment to say there are no facts disbelieving DI.

    -the common sense of watching 2 dice bounce on a table and realizing no one can manipulate or influence those dice to get wanted combinations. Monopoly dice dropped from inches can not be influenced but two dice launched 8 feet and bouncing into rubberized pyramids can? Skill my @ss:confused:. Sorry.
    You don't know that for sure. You can't say that 100%. Just because you can't do it and have not seen anyone do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
    -the casinos welcome ALL DI players
    They also welcome all NON-DI players. Casinos don't care. They make their money off other players and games.
    -as far as I know there are no professional craps players. They all have jobs.
    As far as you know. I have stated many times a "TRUE DI" will stay away from forums and the lime light. They go about their business unnoticed for a reason.
    -there is no tour, no ranking, no bracelets, no skill (physical)
    Just because there is no tour, ranking, etc. doesn't mean the skill doesn't exist. This is not a fact proving DI doesn't exist.
    -there are no attested DI's in the black book or even banned
    Maybe because they go under the radar and unnoticed.
    -the record holder for toss length is a woman from NJ (randie)
    You are basing this off the assumption a DI is someone that can throw the dice for hours and have long rolls every time they hold the dice. That is an incorrect reflection of DI.
    -personal observation...no one is beating this game with dice control.
    That is your personal observation and not a fact.
    -people can and do win...but I attribute that to simple luck.
    Again that is your opinion and not a fact
    -there has been zero demonstration on the efficacy of DI
    Not that you have seen. Again an opinion not a fact.

    TDV I strongly believe some of the "SO CALLED" DI'ers on this forum miss represent what DI is and the proof is in their posts. They have no clue what they are talking about. Your response is based on the posts they make. I am not trying to preach to you or convert you. Again you are entitled to your own opinions but I do have an issue when you start talking about facts debunking DI and the bohunk challenge that was put out will in no way prove or disprove DI.
     
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  12. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    OK, let me flip. We could go back and forth for hours. Before I start I fully concede just about everything on DI is opinion based...with few exceptions, IMO.
    Right. Your opinion. Not fact.
    Well, if DI is looked at as advantage play...we can (I believe) make a comparison to blackjack advantage players. Card counters are NOT welcome into casinos "because they make money off other blackjack players". In this case I would argue your point is specious. The casino CARES mightily if there are 999 basic strategy players on their tables...and 1 single solitary card counter. He will not just be allowed to play "because we will make money off the other 999 players". No way. No how.
    OK, what are you doing here? and all the other DI claimers here? You also belong to other forums under gargoil?...I believe?
    Right. Opinion. I believe it is theoretically possible...whatever that means.
    Possible. Opinion.
    Right.
    Under this limited explanation...yes. Opinion.
    Right. If you know of a demonstration---true controlled type demo, please post here.
    The bohunk was put out there as proof of NOTHING. It was simply a GO DO challenge to those who claim they can increase SRR or roll more of a certain number than expectation.

    You guys keep pounding on this "proves nothing about DI"...WE FULLY ADMIT THAT. This was simply a GO DO what you say you can do challenge. It's based on many rolls...not calling out a 6 and rolling a 6. 360 rolls. 720 rolls. 1,000 rolls. Whatever a DI needs to GO DO.

    Hell...it doesn't even have to be for money. Just go do. I'll watch.

    And as far as belief or confirmation of DI....I am not the one who needs to do that. I also cannot prove it doesn't exist (proving a negative?). It is left up to those who want others to believe to prove their point, argument. Or not. Then, it's left up in the air.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
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  13. gargoil, Nov 4, 2016

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    TDV I will not do a reply of the entire post in order to save room :) but I will answer you. It is MY OPINION that the advantage a DI has in craps is so small that it cannot be compared to card counting in black jack. However I believe any advantage (no matter how small) should be looked at. Yes I do post under Gargoil on the apc forum. I posted a few over a year ago on a third one but that forum in my opinion is dead. If you noticed I am not here as much (almost a year since I posted last) and will probably disappear again in a few weeks and go back to doing what I do :). Unlike others here who like to thump their chest at their accomplishments every 10 seconds I don't need to do that.
    The other thing I would mention is DI is not dice control. Anyone that tells you they can control the dice is a liar and you don't have to call them that, I will. There is a HUGE difference between control and influence. This is not tomato TOMATO. Controlling something means you can make it do something on demand. Influencing means you can try and make it do something. The more you try, the hope is the better you get at it.

    Again I am not trying to persuade you one way or another. I am just answering your questions and I think having a good conversation. The way discussions here are meant to be.
     
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  14. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

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    There is no HUGE difference between control and influence. They are in fact SYNONYMS.. Controlling does not imply "on demand" any more (or less) than influence does.

    Influence means you can "try" and make it do something? No. Either you are or you aren't. There is no "try". Try is an attempt..nothing more. Influence is accomplished...not tried.

    Control...The power to INFLUENCE the course of events

    Influence...The capacity to HAVE an effect (CONTROL) on the course of events.

    There is no "try"....either you are or not.

    These are more word games DI guys try and play to lessen the idea that DI is merely influence and not control. I guess it sounds better. In the real world....same. Brass tacks.

    I can stick the word "TRY TO" in front of influence or control. In both...it's nothing more than an attempt.

    If there is some DI dictionary that defines these words in a different manner as it only applies to DI...whatever. Then make up any definition you like. This is akin to tdb saying his SRR is 8.5 but saying he excludes all comeout roll numbers UNLESS a point number is rolled. All well and fine, but not a true indication of what people know to be SRR.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  15. DeMango, Nov 4, 2016

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    This entire thread was meant to be an insult to some by our local troll, davey boy. We really don't have to hash out can and can't for the umpteenth time.
     
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  16. twodicebilly, Nov 4, 2016

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Gargoil


    I could not agree more.... I like you don't not believe in dice control.... that is my opinion, there are
    others that do and that is fine.

    Everything I have suggested here about what I feel has been possible is from my records, either
    at the caisno or at my table.

    What ever I post is not meant to convince anyone of anything, just a report of what I see.

    I don't care even a little bit what some one else has done, if they win great, if they lose
    hell we have all done that... so what else is new..

    But you can state that you don't believe in dice control or influence without casting doubt
    on the work or records of others.... but that is not what happens... some people think that
    just because we even bring the topic up, we are some how stating we are superior to them..

    I cant figure how yo make that leap... still others constantly indicate you got to be full of shit
    or you would be far ahead.... if you lost for 38 years and are doing well now your still a fraud
    because you not already made up for the first 38 years.....

    Some one said this could be a good board.... I 100% agree... it could be, but it cant if a few
    guys still insist on insults instead of a general opinion.

    twodicebilly
     
    #56
  17. Onautopilot, Nov 4, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Anyone that has a true SRR of 8.4, has the keys to the vault!

    There are any number of betting schemes that one could employ with that amount of skill.

    Just employing the iron cross would give you about a 15% advantage on every roll.

    Ain't happening!
     
    #57
  18. Dave G Ct, Nov 4, 2016

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

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    Well I may post about DI but TD is never a problem.SRT' s like DeMango who look for attention certainly are.
    Now you have Gargoil saying DI play under the radar.Give me a break - you think the suits do not know if you set the Dice and have good rolls? Are you in disguise? Are you switching casinos Everytime out? Of course not.The head shift supervisor knows me - knows I only shoot, and will ask me how is my game going.That is the adult way of approaching DI .Gee maybe Gargoil can become a " secret agent" Have a feeling TD would still find him out. Lol
     
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  19. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 4, 2016

    The Midnight Skulker

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    So stipulated, but I have to question if the potential gain is worth the cost in time and money to acquire it, particularly when a report of failure is countered with, "You need more practice," and/or, "You need some (or more and/or better) instruction." As TDVegas notes one cannot prove a negative, but a carrot on a stick argument does little to support a positive.
    Merriam-Webster seems to disagree.

    Simple Definition of control (from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/control)
    • to direct the behavior of (a person or animal)
    • to cause (a person or animal) to do what you want
    • to have power over (something)
    • to direct the actions or function of (something)
    • to cause (something) to act or function in a certain way
    Simple Definition of influence (from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/influence)
    • the power to change or affect someone or something
    • the power to cause changes without directly forcing them to happen
    • a person or thing that affects someone or something in an important way
    In both cases the behavior of a target entity is changed, so the two words express similar concepts, but I interpret "control" as equivalent to "absolute influence", "direct" vs. "affect". Advertisements attempt to influence my purchasing decisions, but I can still buy whatever I wish and therefore am not under the control of the advertiser.
     
    #59
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  20. TDVegas, Nov 4, 2016

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Obviously things can change from Monday to Tuesday...just noting why the passline bettor can do better than the buy or place bettor who would have been on the sidelines waiting for the point. In fact there was one more 7 that I rolled for five in a row blue 7's---all winners. If someone was parlaying...he banked some decent dough.

    image.jpeg
     
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