Craps Table of a different type

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by KokomoJoe4, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. KokomoJoe4, Oct 28, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,330
    gargoil,

    While placing that wager will pay you on the number you are looking to cover, the number is expected to show on only 1 of 36 placements, and not show on the other 97.2% of the come out rolls.

    So placing boxcars to "cover" the "problem" of not having it pay at come out will actually make the math much worse than playing just the Don't.

    There is NO way to "improve" the math of the game. It is player negative by design, and the casinos know this.

    Only the variance introduced by (1) odds and (2) random and unpredictable (player favorable) dice outcomes give us a "mathematically definable" opportunity for a win, even a big win.
     
    #41
    Onautopilot likes this.
  2. KokomoJoe4, Oct 28, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,330
    Of course, these player favorable dice outcomes can be explained more than one way!

    As you know, this is the basis of the argument that exists between the "DI" and the "it's all random" camps.
     
    #42
  3. gargoil, Oct 28, 2017

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    618
    Yes and my question was directed from a math perspective of the game. As you know my opinion on DI, while I believe it is possible, I don't believe in dice control or sniping numbers. I have never seen anyone do it with a high success rate.
     
    #43
  4. The Comeback Kid, Oct 28, 2017

    The Comeback Kid

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    1,219
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    That's why you don't play the math; you play the energy. And the primary energy source to be deal with, is your own. That's the elephant in the room. But this takes practice & if you don't think the common denominator is you, please reconsider.

    Once you begin to see that what's going on inside is being reflected in what's happening outside, you come into your power. I never understood this until I applied it to Craps.Therefore, not just a game, but a path of transformation. Because in this context, energy in motion = e-motion.

    Therein lies the only thing you can control - not the thing...no, no...not the thing, (not now anyway) but how you feel about thing. Put the horse before the cart. Shift your perspective & now the thing i.e. the condition changes from random chaos, to not just any kind of order, nay, nay, but the kind of order you prefer. And lo & behold, when you see your intentions being played out in perfect orchestration, why, you'll never be the same again. This is not new age mumbo-jumbo...it's physics.

    So let's say, OK, CBK, I wanna shift, what's the 1st step?
    You really wanna? Ya...I really wanna.
    You really really wanna? Yeah, I really REALLY REALLY WANNA!
    OK. Stop saying, "it's a negative expectation game".

    1-GSdNDXpfgK-ftY2iv6vojw.jpeg
     
    #44
    HornHighBLEVE likes this.
  5. KokomoJoe4, Oct 28, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,330
    When we walk into the casino with say $300, and walk out with $1500, the expectation was not achieved. However, this is not a problem

    It is what it is, and it is the math that tells us both, that is, what it is and what it can be. (I really want to see the Baron's response to this).

    CBK, I do like your thoughts on and approach to playing the game. There are times when things go splendidly and put you into a good frame of mind.

    it is those times when NOTHING goes correctly that drive me crazy and get me to see that the elephant really is there.
     
    #45
  6. Mssthis1, Oct 28, 2017

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    3,607
    Likes Received:
    5,725

    Those are the days when you need to find something else to do. If I change my betting style during a session and it doesn't work because the dice flip flopped the same time I did, I end that session and find something else to do.

    It took me way too many years to learn that. The final straw was last January in Biloxi. First thing on a Friday morning I cashed in $900 in chips from the previous day. The cashier tried to give me $9 and it took two tries to correct them. That whole day I bled money no matter what game I played or how I played it.

    The universe was trying to tell me something when the cashier accidentally tried to chump me and I didn't figure it out until a day later.

    Now I start and end sessions when I want to depending on how I feel and what the world around me is telling me. Win/loss, dice hot/cold, and all that other crap doesn't enter into the equation any more.

    Most casinos are open 24/7. There's no reason why you can't start and stop sessions when you FEEL like it or YOU WANT to. Don't let things like I HAVE TO GET BACK TO EVEN or THE DICE ARE TOO HOT TO LEAVE cloud your mind.
     
    #46
  7. TDVegas, Oct 28, 2017

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    Messages:
    18,892
    Likes Received:
    13,676
    Granted I'm very close to the casino...but I generally follow this too.

    I'm not entirely superstitious but sometimes I do "hear a voice" based on what has happened. If it's going bad....for better or worse how it would continue to go if I stayed---I don't find out. I leave. There is always tomorrow.

    If anything...0% house edge when walking out the door isn't bad.
     
    #47
    Onautopilot and basicstrategy777 like this.
  8. tabletop123, Oct 28, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,564
    Likes Received:
    5,546
    Amen to that! I know the right move to make whilst in the Casinos! I preach it all of the time right here on this forum......then I go do the OPPOSITE of what I preach,,& end up getting castrated! Lol.

    It took me a long time to realize that deft tosses don't guarantee success! I absolutely love tossing JUST ONE hand per session ( win or lose), but somehow that TOSSING ONLY ONE HAND. Is just like Jay's Potatoe Chips....ya can't eat just one! Lol
     
    #48
  9. basicstrategy777, Oct 29, 2017

    basicstrategy777

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    10,959
    Likes Received:
    10,918
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CT.
    To start the craps day properly, it is important you feel 'up'.....you wear cloths that fit your mood.....you 'test' your luck for the craps day by playing at least one casino game other than craps to get a sense how lady Luck is going to treat you........then approach the craps table, rub your hands together and have an air of dominence about you ; ......if all has been going well up to that point, in spite of a superior foe, you will emerge victorious.

    777
     
    #49
    The Comeback Kid and KokomoJoe4 like this.
  10. Edward-ky, Oct 29, 2017

    Edward-ky

    Edward-ky Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,704
    Likes Received:
    1,549
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Its funny but before i play craps i will usually go play keno i guess you can say a guilty pleasure to see how the lady may shine on me for that day.
     
    #50
  11. Edward-ky, Oct 29, 2017

    Edward-ky

    Edward-ky Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,704
    Likes Received:
    1,549
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kentucky
    If the numbers are a rollin im not about to be goin.
     
    #51
  12. von duck, Oct 29, 2017

    von duck

    von duck Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    13,295
    Likes Received:
    2,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Catchy Edward-Ky, you'll have all the guys sayin this. :D
     
    #52
  13. James Hall, Oct 29, 2017

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    16,881
    Likes Received:
    2,402
    Gender:
    Male
    A high success rate is relative , some people have no success , some have a little success , some have even more success
     
    #53
    eagleeye2 likes this.
  14. KokomoJoe4, Aug 13, 2019

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,330

    Picking at the place bettors looking for some disagreement with what numbers tell us about prospects for success with various types of wagers we DO players like to make.

    I have hit an occasional place bet. I have on rare occasions won some money making and pressing place bets. I have never made money placing across, but haven't tried it more than a handful of times.

    I have seen people make a ton of money placing and pressing. This happens. Multiple place bets are a simple way to have a lot of action, although action is not always a good thing.

    The math of the game tells me that nearly all bets on the typical table leave me only the hopeful (sometime hopeless) underdog, but it also tells me that contract bets are better than place bets.

    Experiences at play over quite a few years have confirmed this for me.

    Anybody want to fight?
     
    #54
  15. Mssthis1, Aug 13, 2019

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Messages:
    3,607
    Likes Received:
    5,725

    Nope. You're 100% correct. One bet is always the optimal way to play and the line is the bet that sees the most action of any on the table that isn't a one roll bet.

    For better or for worse most craps players are action junkies, whether they realize it or not. One bet on the line on a full table with a disengaged crew can sometimes be about as much fun as watching paint dry. That is the draw of place bets and all the other bets on the table.

    You can count me as guilty as charged for making place/buy bets even though I know the disadvantages. I try to minimize the damage by playing only on tables with 10x or higher odds and replacing them with come bets as quickly as possible.

    I don't recommend others play as I do.
     
    #55
  16. Bases loaded, Aug 13, 2019

    Bases loaded

    Bases loaded Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    2,228
    Likes Received:
    2,186
    Betting 'Across' is NOT Loading the bases!

    Continuous come betting with as much odds as you can afford is how you load 'em up.

    This can of course be disastrous as we have discussed here many times. Rolling each of the box numbers once, then big red hits.....oops!

    But it can be beneficial as well. PSO's are not that damaging. When the dice are hitting only certain numbers, you are on them and not on the 'missing' numbers. This is 'betting what the table gives you'.

    But it has been proven - 'the Come Bet sucks!', right?
     
    #56
  17. DeMango, Aug 13, 2019

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,927
    Likes Received:
    2,589
    Gender:
    Male
    Only to trolls and mentally challenged.

    Remember a long time ago that MP took the advice of Stanford Wong and reduced his place bets and increased his pl odds. Increased profit was the result.
     
    #57
    yacraps, HornHiYo and tabletop123 like this.
  18. tabletop123, Aug 13, 2019

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,564
    Likes Received:
    5,546
    No disagreements from me. There was a time when I placed all of the numbers trying to press to the moon. End result? Didn't work.

    So....I decided to just place the inside numbers, & press to the moon. End result? Didn't work.

    Okay, I'll simply place " All across for ONLY one hit, & down. End results? You guessed......DIDNT work!!! ( Seemed to work INITIALLY, but as ALWAYS.....those rashes of unexpected 7's EVENTUALLY catch up to ya).

    Place inside numbers for one hit & down. End result? Sorry Charlie.......NO DICE!!!!

    My advice for the guys that REALLY THINK they can influence the dice.....Concentrate & focus your practice on becoming skilled at tossing THREE numbers. ( 6, 7, & 8).
    The Passline bet is almost a 50/50 shot, & it only takes a count hair of influence to level the playing field. Anything more, & you are playing on the positive side of the ledger.

    A 2:1 favorite for the Come-out roll. An even bigger favorite to toss a Seven, once the point is established. ( This is why I say that a SO-CALLED skilled shooter SHOULD be practicing tossing 7's...Dark side play, & Come-out roll playing right-side).

    When these Einsteins tell ya that the Passline & Come bet sucks, & that a skilled shooter shouldn't concern themselves with the math, because it's designed to beat your brains out.......RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!!

    Every intelligent player ( Dice Influencer, or NOT ) should stick to the lowest house edge bets if they want to stand a CHANCE at becoming a long-term winner.

    Bet what the table/dice are giving ya? HORSESHIT!!! Sure....everything works at one time or another, but CONTINUE to bet what the table/dice gives ya & see how far THAT takes ya. ( You'll eventually end up as Harley's roomate in the back seat of his pimped-out 1995 Truck)

    Your next CONSIDERATION besides tossing 7's is the ." Come" bet, & then the 6, & 8. Anything more, & you are simply spinning your wheels in a lake of quicksand.

    Just MY opinion.
     
    #58
  19. DeMango, Aug 13, 2019

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,927
    Likes Received:
    2,589
    Gender:
    Male
    Correct as far as 6-8 goes. Key to the vault.

    I have had some interesting results at practice table throwing the toss you seen at G’s. Tossing at 45 degree angle results in a lot more right face, off axis results. We talking practice, not a game. We talking practice.

    But if this works in a real casino, and right die faces are set to 6’s.... Field bet? Check! ATS bet? Check! Uptown bets? Check! Hop every result containing a six? Check! I’ll be richer than AssHall, Too Dense and SuperRick combined!

    Just Dreaming.
     
    #59
    KokomoJoe4 and HornHiYo like this.
  20. tabletop123, Aug 13, 2019

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,564
    Likes Received:
    5,546
    Well, we all know that Dice Influencers are NOTORIOUS for over-estimating their skill levels. With THAT being said.....with only 3 times odds on the Passline bet, it only takes a SRR of a meager 6.1 to render a 1.06% advantage.

    Now, those calculations are from the Wizard of odds using the,All Sevens set on the Come-out roll, combined with the conventional Hardways set for the point cycle.

    Now, that SAME SRR of 6.1 would render a dismall - 0.107% disadvantage on the 6/8 place bets.( Suprise, suprise)

    At the bare bones minimum....you need to exhibit a 6.25 SRR to render a 1.3% advantage on the 6/8 place bets. Of course, the Die-hard Di's will QUICKLY, & ADAMANTLY SWEAR that they possess a SRR of 7,8,9, 10 ( which we know is total bullshit), but they are the ones still at the $3 tables, clinching that last $20 Bill as if it's their life Savings.

    The reality is that most good shooters are LUCKY to possess a LONG TERM SRR of 6.3 ( and that's being generous), & according to the Wizard's Dice Influencing scale...most shooters ( skilled, or not) will fare better sticking to a Passline with odds bet ( 3.4,5, or better), the DREADED, SUCK-ASS Come bet, Don't Pass, Dont Come, or if ya just MUST have a bit more action.....the 6/8 place bets ( fraught with peril).

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.....the Buy 4/10 with the vig paid only on wins comes in at only a 1.3% house edge, ( paying 2:1), but only Dave ( lol) is skilled enough to nail those 4's, & 10's.

    So.....there you have it, boys, & girls.
    The same things that you already knew .....STILL holds true to this day.........Stop all of the " Action Junkie" thingy, stick to the Math of the game. Ignore bullshit stories, & claims of those that think their Stellar shooting trumps the math of the game, & ya might........ just MIGHT find yourself on the positive side of the ledger ( Dice Influencer, or not) a little more than you would least expect.

    Continued Success at the tables.
     
    #60
    KokomoJoe4, yacraps and HornHiYo like this.