Craps... a game of skill? Nope. Video Poker is...

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by SevenOut, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. SevenOut, Dec 4, 2017

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    "My raison d'etre is not agreeing with Rob, but realistically, the idea that no casino personnel has motive, means, and opportunity to cheat (video poker included) is absurd. Now one can argue that it's a rare event that should be ignored, or one can argue that it happens much more than anyone is willing to admit. Either position one takes, whether a poster here or a casino exec with 50 years experience, is based on incomplete information and may be wrong. However, the casino exec with 50 years Las Vegas experience is more likely to be correct, one would assume, than a poster here with no history of casino inner workings.

    The bottom line is no poster here can preclude the possibility that casino cheating is relatively frequent. That position would be based on no data (personal data, no matter how much, is an anecdotal drop in the bucket) and incomplete information. So why do people feel it is necessary to take this absurd position?

    The question answers itself. It's a Fox Mulder quote.
    *******
    (From a Video Poker Forum)

    Now that I am studying the Video Poker crowd... the above quote is an indication, that no matter what the Casino Game, everyone suspects someone is doing something to someone. Namely, either the Casino, overall. The Video Poker equipment is tampered with. The Craps Table with funky dice being entered into a 'honest game'.

    Sorry Folks. There is no refuge for just accepting that gambling is not a way to riches. Ever.
     
    #21
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  2. tabletop123, Dec 4, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Nope! WRONG again! WE are all trying to find a way to win more consistently! YOURSELF included!

    Ya know, it gives me a huge chuckle reading posts from guys like you. When someone is NOT fully aboard with the Dice Influencing thingy, the "maybe you weren't trained properly". "You aren't certain", "Maybe you just can't do it" stuff comes into play! Lol.
    James, you aren't winning any more, or have any more skill than anyone else that plays the game.

    Now, what you MIGHT possess is a nice LOOKING toss after many years of practice. That is where it all stops! Ya don't think that I have explored the ins, & outs of Dice Influencing?

    I, too, have studied the craft. Performed many experiments. Engaged in countless Casino battles.

    Here's the REAL deal......If Dice Influencing was such a viable skill, the so-called talented shooter would NOT have to scurry off to the Cage after tossing a profitable hand!
    Would NOT have to limit their playing time at the table.

    Would NOT have to "Walk" after a Seven Out! I respond to your grandiose delusions NOT because I need to debate the validity of Dice Influencing. I simply respond because I know the TRUTH behind the craft.

    So does Rick. So does Gargoil, & so do a few others ( Dave being the exception, because he is just as delusional as yourself).
    A skill is a skill. Yes, there are varying degrees of skill, but tossing two darn near weightless cubes 8-12 feet down a Craps table is no monumental task that should fatigue the shooter. No need to quit. No need to walk away from the table after a Seven Out!

    You're skilled, right? A bona fide Dice Influencer, so where the fu**k are ya running off to? Find yourself a empty table wherein ya don't have to run, & empty the vault! EASY PEASY!

    The first mistake that ya made James is when ya said that you walk after a Seven Out because ya don't want to stand there waiting for the dice to come back around!

    No respectable so-called Dice Influencer plays at a table with more than 1-3 other players! Preferably.....a EMPTY table.

    Ya see James, even though Rick defends you, I KNOW that Rick AT THE VERY LEAST gives himself the BEST opportunity to win because he WALKS AS SOON AS someone buys in on his empty table. Gargoil does the same!

    We won't even mention Demango, because Demango prefers for the whole fu**king CASINO to be empty when he arrives. THOSE are the guys that I TRULY believe give themselves the best chance to plow their craft.

    Nope....don't know their win/loss record, but I DO know that guys that THINK they can influence the dice want the whole table/Casino to themselves. They NEVER want to see another patron within ten feet of where they are tossing.

    Does this make them Dice Influencers? NO, but this is how they operate!

    YOU have said quite the contrary! Playing at crowded tables. Walking to ANOTHER crowded table after a Seven out! Lol.

    Continued success at the tables, but your stories, beliefs, keep me in stitches!
     
    #22
  3. SevenOut, Dec 4, 2017

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    The latest discussions are what Forum members 'expect' from all of us. Very good comments and some insight as to other's thinking processes before and while in action.

    Any of you who were drafted during Viet Nam conscription will recall Basic Training and Advanced Infantry Training practicing and practicing 'hand to hand' combat. If I wanted my ass kicked, sure, otherwise... those weeks were best forgotten. Western boys and men prefer to sneak up on the game, not follow the road and have them find us, thinking that a bayonet will scare off someone with an automatic AK47.

    This is how Dice Influencing comes across to me. Let's NOT sneak up to the Craps Table and kick their ass, and not do it to yourself before getting started. Flaunting your delicate touch is going to be a signal to the Pit Crew that this 'dandy' needs to be hassled to break his concentration. If you, as a DI or a Craps Player in general... get your dander up with someone staring at you... go somewhere quiet, like a powder room.

    Or the Pit Boss warning you... 'one more short die and I am calling a No Roll'... usually will get them out of the building.

    James Hall manages to keep himself under control and when gambling... you had better have control of your emotions, otherwise you are not a player but bound to be a loser in a short time.

    I spent more time working AT the Craps Tables, than I have had playing on them. I never wanted to be on the losing side of anything. Craps included.

    Video Poker is more private. Catching an occasional Four of a Kind is like having a $5 chip on the 12 and hitting it. No cheers. No dealer interaction. Just mentally focusing onto what is dealt on a video screen, making decisions and the thought of a Craps Table is not even on the bottom of a grocery list. It appears no more mental punishment than at a Craps Table.

    Focus, focus and focus. If someone wants to have a conversation with you... do it at a table with plates and food. Not a Craps Table with cash on the line.

    I find that the DI Crowd travel as a group. Lately, I will find a group all at one end of a table. The only end of the table crew is working, as there are not enough players to open the other side.

    Anyone who can write a response to a post, about DI or Craps in general, and do it in a sentence or three... needs to find the closest exit out of the Casino and go home. You have not learned one thing about keeping your mind and composure focussed, nor understand Craps.

    Craps is not a game, but a war in progress. If you have what it takes, you will make it through life. If not, get the hell out of our way. If you lose and moan and bitch about your arm being off, or your fingers were not in sync with the planet's rotation... you are an idiot... not meant to be near a Craps Table.

    And if I do not make the grade... Video Poker is fine for me and the beer flows freely just for a tip.
     
    #23
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  4. James Hall, Dec 5, 2017

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    Well you are right in at least one respect , I do WORK to improve
    You said that I have no more skill and that I don't win anymore than anyone else
    statements like that would lead one to believe that we are all exactly equal in our results.
    When I read your posts I see someone who is on the fence , you want to believe and yet
    it's almost like you don't want to fully commit for fear of being disappointed
    Their is nothing unique in that , everyone feels that at some point and sometimes very often .
    The point that I try to make , and maybe you have not understood is
    People are capable of a lot more than they sometimes realize
    Where some people think the human being is saddled with great limitation
    I think there is almost no limit to what a person can do
    Throwing dice is no monumental task , they are very light and as you say we have to only throw them 8 feet or so , I don't see that as a monumental feat
    the limitations exist only in the mind of each individual
    My attitude dictates to me

    "If any man has ever done what I want to do , I will do it too"
    "If no man has ever done what I want to do I will be the first ever"

    Nobody will ever convince me I can't do something , only I can decide to fail
    and I won't fail until I decide to stop trying
    Call that , "CHEST THUMPING"
    Call that , "EGO"
    that is how I live my life
    I WILL NOT be shackled by other peoples opinions of what can or cannot be done
    Many people believe that SKILL in handling dice is impossible
    THEY are WRONG
    If you disagree with that assessment I am sorry
    If you believe you are as good as you will ever be I would encourage you
    To just continue doing what you are doing and be happy with that
    I hope you find what you want whatever that might be
    Your beliefs are your own
    You said I might have a nice looking toss , that's where it stops
    actually that's , "WHERE IT BEGINS" I hope it never stops , I work very hard
    to continue improving
    If you were offended by my post I analogize that was not my intention
    I simply wanted to point out that sometimes people are capable of much more than they realize
     
    #24
  5. SevenOut, Dec 5, 2017

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Skill... my fellow Craps enthusiasts can be found here in Las Vegas.

    The Circus 1903 act will demonstrate skill of hand and eye coordination. Although... from the juggling acts and slight of hand experts... none to be found setting dice.

    Why? These people have more than it takes to coordinate hand, eye and objects. Has anyone found any of these professionals at a Craps Table?

    Sometimes talents can cross over into other fields. Just seems to be a natural to me.

    If you have watched a 'slight of hand' professional take a fresh deck of cards and deal to five poker players sitting at a blackjack table (we had no poker table)... I will never play a friendly game of Poker outside a Casino. These guys are good.
     
    #25
  6. SevenOut, Dec 5, 2017

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Now that I am asking questions about Video Poker... it is getting into chips and how they work.

    I think we spend too much time analyzing Acetate Dice.

    These computer operated slot machines and video games have a lot of questionable stuff to be found on those internal boards. Random number generating chips may not be that... random after all. Once you slide your Casino Card into the machine... you are on your own.

    Maybe gambling will not be a preferred past time, for me. Metal detecting might be a healthy outdoor activity to pursue for corroded coins and pull tabs.
     
    #26
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  7. tabletop123, Dec 5, 2017

    tabletop123

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    Come on James.....Really? Offended by a post from someone that I don't even know? On a Craps forum? Lol. Seems like I am on the fence? I want to believe, but I am not sure? Lol.

    I've been doing this Di'ng thingy a long time James. Yep.....just about put in my 10,000 hours of practice & play! What you fail to acknowledge is initial table contact, & the pyramids.

    THOSE are the TWO things that thwart a perfectly spinning/floating toss. NOT some bullshit ( excuse my language) about "you weren't trained properly", etc.

    If I ever get down to your neck of the woods, I'll show you a thing or three about what dice do when they bounce, & tumble. Obviously your Video Camera is out of order, or ya just ain't filming correctly!

    I will be more than happy to put you ONLY four feet away from the back wall, book your bets, & watch ya shoot your dick in the dirt ( on your own table).

    Ya see James...the things that YOU claim, & the skill level that YOU boast about simply does NOT exist.

    I've never seen Rick shoot, but I have heard some very good things about his shooting prowess, & he NEVER claims to be able to do what YOU do on a table. As a matter of fact Rick said that he once PSO'd 25 times during a session. At least Rick keeps things in proper perspective. Tells the TRUTH.

    Same thing with your arch nemesis Gargoil! Now, I HAVE seen G toss the dice, & as good as his toss is.....he can stink up a table & toss a few "bricks" ( fucked up hands) too.

    You cannot equate perfectly spinning dice, & accuracy in hitting a spot/s as getting FAVORABLE RESULTS that PUTS MONEY in your pocket/ skewing probability!

    Is it a skill to spin, float dice in complete tandem, hitting a designated spot? Yep....unequivocally so, but the question STILL remains........are you skewing probability?

    Ya ever heard the term "Smoke, & Mirrors"? Well, a deft toss can, & will reflect that image. Ya might wanna get with Rick, because we BOTH have admitted that a TON of our BEST looking tosses amounted to nothing more than "Bankroll busting" Seven Outs!

    You've been practicing your toss since Sydney, & 1966? Well, after all of those years, you'd BETTER have a toss wherein the dice travel as a unit! The question remains ONCE AGAIN.......is That beauty of a toss skewing probability at a CONSISTENT clip?

    For the record James, I have traveled all over the Country gambling & hustling pool,,& I've NEVER wagered money wherein I was "uncertain", or "on the fence"! Ya better believe that when my money is involved.....I'M ALL IN!

    You've probably never been FORCED to win in order to eat......I HAVE!

    Ya miss too many balls whilst on the road, & things can go real bad......REAL FAST!
     
    #27
  8. lone irish digit, Dec 5, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    This is Barney,

    The casino game requiring mostest skill is the slots. One must know many parameters to take the advantage. This includes the manufacturer, pay scale, rise, and run. Takes much effort to really see what goes on in the very competitive world of the sluts in casino. Requires greatest patience and discipline to come outs ahead. When I get out of hospital I plan to augment my slots skills by taking karate lessons to beat the shits out of old ladies trying to steal my machine.


    Thank you very much
     
    #28
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  9. tabletop123, Dec 5, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Lol
     
    #29
  10. James Hall, Dec 6, 2017

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    You said in yor post that I fail to acknowledge the initial table contact and the pyramids
    only one of those two things are of concern to me and that is the initial table contact.
    Being trained and continued training is always important in any endeavor , let's call it coaching, having someone watch , critique and suggest corrections is a plus.
    The best golfers in the world are coached constantly , basketball players , football players etc. Even among some of the top business people in the world hold meetings to go over results to regroup , reorganize . When we stop learning we have a tendency to stop improving . When we stop growing , we begin to die , craps is no different
    If people are satisfied with their progress the are just about finished
    Satisfaction is the the beginning of the end to success
    We are grow or we die
    I see on this forum from the naysayers on this forum all the time
    "I am satisfied with my game" and yet those same people say
    they lose more than they win
    How they can be satisfied with that is beyond me
    They are settling for less than they are capable of
    I don't understand the attitude but that is their choice
    I have had many people tell me I am overly critical , I am more critical of me than of anyone else
    This DI thing is not nearly so difficult as many believe
    The ones who are the most critical are the ones who know the least about it
    The reason for that is people judge most things by personal experience
    They have a tendency to doubt anything they have not seen and are very sceptical
    of things they don't understand
    My question for you would be just where do you stand on the question of DI
    I seem to get mixed signals from your posts
    and am very curious of your opinion
     
    #30
  11. tabletop123, Dec 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Where do I stand? I stand alone! Unless I am mistaken, YOU must be the Michael Jordan of Dice Influencing, because telling folks it's not as hard as people think is a outright lie!

    Your toss can remain consistent, but not necessarily results. You seem to constantly omit this with this "proper training", " another set of eyes watching" nonsense!

    There are many good shooters that NEVER had a coach, proper training, etc, that cannot do the things that YOU profess to do. Ya got, Rick, SnakeEyes, Demango, Myself, Dave, & many others that never had a "Sydney", & we NEVER stated Influencing the dice to be EASY PEASY as you do.

    As a matter of fact, Rick has always said that the best play is one hit, & down. Rick does NOT bet Across either, & he's touted as a good shooter. Why is that?

    Probably because he's smart enough to realize that the Seven Out can, & will come at the most inopportune times, & that rolls don't usually last long.

    So.....I stand as a firm believer. Its simply that I don't Sugar Coat Dice Influencing, & I realize it's limitations. Yes, I do believe that there are varying skill levels, but even at the highest level....youre still only a eyelash above random.....and THAT'S not a given on any particular day!

    What you fail to realize is that MOST tosses are Random....no matter how good that they look. All it takes is a little influence to get an edge? Lol.

    Easier SAID than done, & if I ever get down to your neck of the woods, I'll be certain to request some of your "proper" training, because NO ONE is waltzing into the Casinos at their leisure, & extracting money ON DEMAND to pay for mortgage payments, kids college tuitions, Airplane notes, Car note payments, Pussy Bills, etc.

    YOU are the first, & only James! The last of a dying breed, I would assume. At any rate....Continued success at YOUR HOME table! Lol
     
    #31
  12. James Hall, Dec 6, 2017

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    What people don't know or understand does not constitute a lie it can however
    create skepticism

    Well first off I am not the last of a dying breed , I am training others.
    secondly I never said it was easy I simply said it's not as difficult as people think it is
    and that is the truth , they make it more difficult than it has to be
    Because a shot , as you put it , is pretty, because a shot hits a specific target does not in and of itself make it effective , there is more to it than that
    it's what happens after all that happens where people get so balled up
    it's all the unnecessary banging and rolling around that creates the confusion
    I omit nothing some things are just true and don't need to be repeated
    I do not allow myself to concentrate on failures , I focus on successful results
    you cannot develop good consistent throws by dwelling on the bad ones
    In MOST cases it is true that MOST throws are random but not in all cases
    All it takes is a little influence to win , one more 6
    People on this board are always talking about the razor edge advantage the house has
    You said there are many good shooters who never had a Sydney
    I guess that depends on what you would call a really good shooter
    I have found that having met him and taken advantage of his expertise has been an advantage in my life .

    .
     
    #32
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  13. Bases loaded, Dec 6, 2017

    Bases loaded

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    Above sounds like a sales pitch.

    "It's not as hard as it looks / anybody can do it"

    Does your school offer a guarantee?
     
    #33
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  14. tabletop123, Dec 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Well, one thing is certain James.....I have NEVER, & NEVER will be a hater! If you can make Dice Influencing less difficult. If you can waltz into a Casino of YOUR choosing & waltz out with the Cash time after time, ONLY visiting the Casinos when ya need a bill paid.....I applaud you ,& envy you.

    In reference to your statement of "what people don't understand"...James, I understand THOROUGHLY what Dice Influencing entails.

    Now, I don't have the scholastics of most on this forum, but I'm a nosey S.O.B., & I've always wanted to know WHY things work, or fail. Which means....I have spent countless hours experimenting, filming, biodegrading things in an effort to understand this Dice Influencing thingy. What I didnt, & couldn't understand.....Rick gave me a thorough understanding of. Spent, & will continue to spend some time with G, in an effort to pick his brain, & maybe pick up a few things.

    So....I've done my homework James, & I try not to burn bridges, because I certainly don't have all of the answers. Ya CAN always learn SOMETHING just by communicating, & watching others.

    Most people learn the fundamentals, & then take to things like a shark chasing blood! Coach? NEVER had one, & NEVER needed one. I kinda figure things out once I know the basics. Asking questions. Seeking advice along the way! Been that way all of my life.

    Only difference with Dice Influencing is that I never "hung around" champion shooters, because they don't exist like they did when I hung around "World beaters", & champion pool players.

    Ya see....Pool is a game wherein your skill is not PURPOSELY being thwarted by the sheer design of the game......Craps is!

    Continued success at the tables.
     
    #34
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  15. eagleeye2, Dec 6, 2017

    eagleeye2

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    SevenOut,

    It can be stated that One can Only be Convinced 100%, through their OWN ANALYSIS!

    Those that are to lazy to evaluate weather a Casino is employing Biased Dice, at any time, are leaving themselves open to the whymes of that individual Casino, period.

    Folks, it's your MONEY, do & play as you wish.

    eagleeye2
     
    #35
  16. tabletop123, Dec 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Exactly! Anytime you indulge in a game that is designed to separate you from your cash.......it IS as hard as it looks! What REALLY suprises me is that James ( from what he has posted) has always been a fierce competitor. So, for him to say that he can "train" people to be good shooters....just doesn't fly!

    Ya think that Willie Mosconi could take someone under his wing, & make them a 100 ball straight pool runner? Ya think that Tiger woods could make anyone a formidable golfer?

    Ya think Muhammad Ali could train anyone to be a World Champion? What James leaves out of the equation is the much needed "Raw Talent", & the ability to perform under pressure ( with REAL money on the table, & the Casinos closely guarding their cash, & TRYING to make it even MORE difficult for you to win). Coupled with uncanny motor skills, & extreme hand/eye coordination. Now, those are the hallmarks of a successful Dice Influencer, but last but not least is what will make or break ya........A much needed shooting Quirk.

    Possess all of the aforementioned WITHOUT that Shooting Quirk & your dick is going in the dirt! Now, to spare the forum....I won't delve into the intricacies of shooting Quirks, but it's like your American Express Card. Don't leave home without it.

    Apparently, James knows nothing of "The Quirk" because it's NEVER been mentioned in ANY of his post!
    Maybe James should consult with Rick, because Rick knows all about Quirks & I suspect that he has one too! Its what allows ya to win ( coupled with sound betting) more times than not.

    I know that G has one, & it's what allows him to win. Now, I USED to possess one, but.....arthritis killed it. It is what it is!

    However, even at my very best....I still had many bad hands, & losing sessions. Craps is designed to separate you from your money.
    Get real, & face the facts! Doesn't mean that ya have to concede......but at least know that you are facing a very formidable foe that has a lot more "Wood" than you do! Oh,,& did I mention that you are ALWAYS a visitor playing on their Home Court?
     
    #36
  17. DeMango, Dec 6, 2017

    DeMango

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    I admire the effort there TT. What a waste of time however.
     
    #37
  18. tabletop123, Dec 6, 2017

    tabletop123

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    Yep, but I've always been long winded! What REALLY startles me is that here's a guy that has competed in many venues.....I suspect a pretty decent athlete with above average coordination, but fails to mention the most important ingredient that makes Dice Influencing successful.

    Two things that Rick told me years ago was that dice do NOT stay on Axis, & without a shooting quirk OF SOME SORT ( doesn't have to be right side shooting, ie...it could be a quirk that somehow allows you to seven out quicker than normal....play the Donts) you're not gonna win consistently enough in YOUR OWN TURNS WITH THE DICE!
    Dice Influencers need SOMETHING unusual in their toss in order to CONSISTENTLY skew probability.

    It doesn't matter WHAT it is, but it must be consistent. It could be a propensity to toss more 4's than normal. It could be more Trash numbers, too many friggin 7's ( A Darksider's paradise).

    Your left die flips over at a 3:1 ratio over the right die. It could be a myriad of different things, but ya just gotta have something a little more than just two dice flying as a Mirror image.
    More times than not, these things that are needed ( quirks of some sort) are done unintentionally. They are not forced, rehearsed. They are simply natural ingredients that were bestowed upon the shooter.

    Yep....some people are naturally blessed with a skill. It might take a little practice for complete manifestation, but I GUARANTEE you that........IT WAS LAYING DORMANT, just waiting to be unleashed!
     
    #38
  19. James Hall, Dec 6, 2017

    James Hall

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    I never said it's not as hard as it looks
    I never said anybody can do it
    What I did say was it is not as difficult as many people think
    It is not beyond the capability of most people to develop some skill
    You asked if I offer a guarantee
    I charge just enough to pay wear and tear on my table
    some of the Mesa guys have been practicing on my tables for over 4 years

    I do offer a 100% money back guarantee
    I charge $300 for 6 weeks of lessons and unlimited tune up lessons
    again some of these guys have been coming here for over four years
    3 of these guys are in Laughlin now , they came over for a tuneup practice session
    one comes over at least twice a month for practice sessions the other 2 are here usually twice a month but always at least once per month
    The two older guys I have been on the tables with them in Laughlin and Vegas and have made money on their throws
    A lot more than anyone could charge them for lessons
     
    #39
  20. Bases loaded, Dec 6, 2017

    Bases loaded

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    Thanks for thoughtful answer.
     
    #40