Come... I will tell you a short story

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by SevenOut, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. SevenOut, Aug 29, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Come Bets... are wagers placed in the 'wrong place' BY a Player.

    The Come, as it is called, is the Craps Dealer's workbench.

    The End Dealer's workbench:
    - Cut out chips for cash
    - Cut out chips to Pay Players before moving them to the Apron
    - Color up chips for any Player leaving the table
    - Report to Boxman or Pit Boss your chip count for Casino Perks
    - Cut out chips for Hard Ways and Inside Wagers payouts, directed by Stickman
    - On a Seven Out, pull all of the losing chips onto, color sort and put in Bank

    For every reason you would wager on the next Roll of the Dice on the Come... I can most likely explain why it is not good wager.

    Just to show my Bias towards the Come... toss out your reason why the Come is a reasonable wager.

    Or, why the Come is not a good wager.

    This also would include Bubble Craps, if you thought differently.

    One reason for a Player to use the Come:

    A Player does have a viable use for the Come. To make your wagers on Box Numbers to be placed by your End Dealer. Other than that... things go downhill quick.
     
    #1
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  2. Grizzoola, Aug 30, 2018

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    The Come bet is simply (as you well know) a PL bet made after the Come Out phase. In a way, if you condemn the Come bet, you also condemn the PL bet. No? One thing I like about the Come is that it's low HA, like the PL, and you can increase/decrease free odds. Additionally, I like to let the dice pick my numbers, since we all believe (I think) in "take what the table is giving you." It's just a matter of whether you prefer to go w/ what the dice are giving you or whether you prefer to depend on your own hunches, intution, vibes, etc. I'm not dissing the Place bet. Place bets have, well, their place in any strategy.
     
    #2
  3. Mssthis1, Aug 30, 2018

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    4,7,6,7,8,7,9,7. Craps is a game of independent trials that humans try to make into something else. The come bettor was paid on 50% of his wagers on that sequence and is still alive to catch a longer sequence of positive outcome independent trials. The place bettor is probably waiting for next months SS check so they can make another trek to the promised land,.

    The DP player is happy as a clam unless he was making DC bets too and didn't take odds. He's still alive too though and has more opportunities to catch a favorable sequence of independent trials.

    Every roll of the dice can be a winner or a loser if you choose correctly. The person who makes a place bet, picks it up and then just stands there isn't playing. They are just taking up a spot that a real craps player could have.
     
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  4. twodicebilly, Aug 30, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Sevenout


    Every bet on the table is a good bet and every bet on the table is a losing bet.

    That is about the only thing about craps that is universal.

    Come bets

    Frank in his doey dont system used it on other players...….he would place a come and dont
    come bet on roll 4 and lets say it went to the nine...then another 1 unit come bet and dont
    come bet on roll five.....then if roll 6 was a box number he would put single or double odds
    on both. Only replacing one of the come bets if one hit. The purpose of this bet was to limit
    the exposure you had to others players while you were at the table to shoot yourself.

    It worked, you did not win much and you did not lose much, I used it for 2007 and 2008

    You have the three point Molly which uses pass line bet and two comes bets, or it could
    be a dont pass bet with two dont come bets, this is a 3 bet system

    GTC used to guide students in their classes to determine if they had an advantage using
    a Smart Craps system, then only make casino bets that are at or below your determined
    advantage...most often that was 6 & 8, 4 & 10 if the vig was paid on a win and never
    ever place a bet on the 5 or 9

    Then in the later years it was felt by them that a come bet was better than a place bet so
    they went to come bets....except now what.. do you instruct new students to bet come
    bets all the way across like the instructors did?????

    The reason I dont like comes bet is two fold....I think gong to the table and betting the
    come bets all the way across on every shooter is sure way to lose your house, I think
    for new players or small bank roll players it is a disaster.
    Second if you do good amount of practice at home with shots and sets you see certain
    sets give you different groups of number you see most often (35/36 gives you 5 & 9) and
    so on. Now if your using a come bet system....and the first hit goes to 4 and the second
    goes to 6 , you now have three bets working already and you have not covered the
    numbers you see most often.

    I have seen tables and so have you where a lot of players repeat a number right way
    but have very short rolls...If the seems to be a tend I will use one come only.. and
    hope for the best on other folks.
    Sevenout each guy makes up his own mind about what bets to make. the fact that
    I see more bad in a come bet than good most times, or that I dont think the pass line
    bet is a bet I make on most others....is based on my 40 years of play, it does not
    mean it is right for you or anyone else.

    tdb
     
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  5. HornHighBLEVE, Aug 30, 2018

    HornHighBLEVE

    HornHighBLEVE Member

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    Occasionally I'll approach a table with an immediate open spot and since I have no idea hot/cold/choppy I'll make a come bet no odds to satisfy my urge to gamble while I get my sea legs and gauge the attitudes/expressions on the other players.

    It's good to read all the various thought processes and reasons players here do what they do with the come bet.
     
    #5

  6. Liman

    Liman Member

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    I've lived and died with the come bet since around 1974 and I've never lost my house
    I'll stand with the lowest house advantage bet forever as I've held my own at tables
    I've also bet place bets mainly on 6 and 8 and have had similar results

    I prefer 10 times odds or more as this suits my style as little as possible on pass or come and heavy odds
    I believe the most odds I've used are around 25 times when table was hot
    Bankroll limitations and common sense have always taught me different types of betting aggression at tables are based solely on my profits at that moment
    Putting 50 times odds on a 5 dollar flat bet is highly risky when I'd only be up 700 dollars
     
    #6
  7. twodicebilly, Aug 30, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Liman

    that is your way to play, perfect, we each have to play the way
    that works for us.

    BY you posting the way you play, James his and how I play
    are not the same...but how we play and the reasons
    show new players that there is no one right way, and by seeing
    the many different ways others play , it should help a new player
    explore the game, not just read a book or see a simulation
    and expect every trip to the table to follow one pattern

    thanks for the good post

    tdb
     
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  8. TDVegas, Aug 30, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Good lord, who are you trying to fool?

    Since his arrival James has been telling people they are betting the wrong way, gambling the wrong way, playing craps the wrong way because they aren't placing all across. Either you have cognitive dissonance or I don't know what.

    There is no one here saying a right or wrong way to play other than James Hall, whose constant "you're playing wrong, betting wrong" posts are littered thruout this forum as it relates to pass or come. And even yourself..."pass line bet sucks" doesn't help your argument that "there is no one right way".

    Jeez.
     
    #8
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  9. TDVegas, Aug 30, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    No question I agree with this analysis. Spot on.

    While all bets have their place and time and risk levels, the come bet does afford protection when or if the table goes 5-11-7....6-7....etc.

    I've seen guys kill it with placing all across and I've also seen them running to the ATM many times. Sadly, the latter happens a lot more.

    No play is wrong and is usually geared to the players risk level, his wants for the session and what constitutes a happy win. There is no one size fits all.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  10. Liman

    Liman Member

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    billy, don't bring my name up in a post with james hall if you want or ever want to have a serious discussion.
    hall is a lying sack of shit, since day one, his posts are not intended to do anything, certainly not share, teach, or debate, they are only to create flame wars.

    he is a lying sack of shit internet troll

    there is zero proof he has ever played at a real table, not one person on this board nor any other place can state they have seen him play anywhere.

    its just him, and his old buddies leon and parker.

    I had some imaginary friends also when I was 3, maybe 4, maybe when I reach his age I will once again imagine or have delusions, I don't know.

    for now, it makes little difference to me how anyone plays, and Ive played with them all, with tons of dice setters, random, rabbit foot rubbers, special dance move shooters, and the most superstitious shooters on this planet, and we always want to win more than anything else.
     
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  11. SevenOut, Aug 30, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    If you are not playing the Pass Line, yes, the Come is YOUR Pass Line. For everyone playing on the Pass Line, it is not advised. Dice are a poor advisor.

    Post #3- Mssthis1
    The sequence of numbers you gave to break even made an assumption that the Come Box Number player did not add ODDS.

    As to Don't Pass and a Pass Player. One will always be the loser. The only time is the Bar 2 or Bar 12 on the Don't Pass. I have yet to see both happy on any game.

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    The lowest house advantage is on the Pass Line and Don't Pass Line wager. Odds are determined by risk. Scarne's book on Craps has all of the percentages. You earn what you are risking when paid.

    I do not 'feel' atmosphere at a game. Dice have no conscience or memory. Only players.

    I never play the Come. I never play the Big 6 or Big 8. I never wager on the Any 7, or Any Craps. I am not superstitious. Previous outcomes do not influence Future Outcomes.

    I find myself standing in the corner watching and trying to understand the psychology of choices.

    That is why we all find comfort in what we do and think about Craps.

    I thank all for ideas that give many of us something to consider. Variety and new ideas are always hard to find on a Forum.
     
    #11
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  12. The Midnight Skulker, Aug 30, 2018

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I feel constrained to add that I have seen continuous Come bettors also go to the well, even after having had what seemed to me to be quite a good run. "Last Come gets some," is little consolation when you're up on all six numbers with max odds.
     
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  13. TDVegas, Aug 30, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    No question, feast or famine. In either case, going all across or loading the bases can result in big wins or a race to the ATM.

    I generally keep it to 3 numbers...with sometimes variations of place/come. Enough risk...but not too much.
     
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  14. twodicebilly, Aug 30, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    TDV


    You want to talk to James, that is easy, just
    reply to one of his


    tdb
     
    #14
  15. twodicebilly, Aug 30, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Liman

    Just so there is no misunderstanding, I dont know you, I have never
    had anyone visit you and call me with nice things to say about you,
    and in the past I have not seen you go out of your way to encourage
    any one that plays like I do.

    So at this point the canvas is not blank, I would rather listen to James
    than you....that is based on the experience I have had so far,

    To be honest, I think most guys in here are decent, most could play together
    as long as their craps approaches were rather similar. It also seems that
    when we get on this site......me included, we dont act like we may
    in person, I am willing to own that for my part.

    I guess what it is , is what I is..... this place was a mess long before
    James got here...and there is one GUY, that was a large part of
    that mess all the way along the road...You have some courage and
    place his name in the pot, then we got something to talk about


    tdb
     
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  16. TDVegas, Aug 30, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    You included him in your post in making your “no wrong way to play” argument, not me.

    Just noting the dissonance.
     
    #16
  17. James Hall, Aug 30, 2018

    James Hall

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    His intent nor mine is to fool anybody ,
    our intent is to simply put the light of reason on
    the , "horse pucky" , you and others insist on
    infecting this forum with .
    This is totally false , You assumed so because you know
    I play that way , there are other ways to play
    in addition to the way I play but some of the ways you
    advocate are just wrong . Some of what you suggest
    offer no opportunity for success , I and others simply
    offer other / better alternatives.
    Many are reluctant to express opinions or suggestions
    that might differ from yours because of the potential , "PUSH BACK"
    that is promised and is so sure to quickly follow.
    You and other players piss and moan constantly
    how bad you think the place bets are because of what
    You call short or unfair odds
    you avoid like the plague bets that PAY odds and play instead
    the pass line and come bets that pay no odds at all
    and recommend to novice players an even money bet
    that pays no odds what so ever. This is a mixed message
    and very disingenuous at the very least.

    That is certainly not my argument '

    You have played the game for decades now and to
    this point according to you , you are net negative,
    I cannot see how you can possibly square that

    You are playing the right game but it
    does not allow you to remain net positive
    you are losing money on a game you recommend
    I would certainly have to think that there was
    a flaw of some kind in that game . I would also
    have to think I would want to find a way that
    would allow me to win .
    If you are playing a game that keeps you net negative
    it certainly could not or at least should not be
    labelled the right game , I call that the "WRONG GAME"
    Give us another name.
    There is NO ONE RIGHT WAY TO PLAY THE GAME
    There are several , there are
    MANY MORE WRONG WAYS , you generally lose with them
    You need to stop saying "There is no wrong way to play"
    There are many , many wrong ways.
     
    #17
  18. TDVegas, Aug 30, 2018

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Like I said billy. You want to see where the problem issues are today, August 30, 2018...onward?

    I give you James Hall and his “my way or no way”.

    Personally, I think you hitched yourself to the problem guy here.

    Be well.
     
    #18
  19. James Hall, Aug 30, 2018

    James Hall

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    Bull squash , statements like this are generally made
    to make someone feel better after a loss.
    If you lost you bet wrong , you bet on the wrong numbers
    What you are trying to tell people here is
    "You played the right game , you bet all the right numbers '
    the shooter just didn't roll the right numbers.
    Right on this forum , one member posted that
    he was betting the 6 and 8 , the shooter was
    throwing nothing but 5s and 9s so he moved his bets
    to the 5s and 9s then the shooter started throwing
    6s and 8s , He was , PLAYING "THE WRONG GAME"
    for one thing he didn't have enough money on the table
    He missed bets because he didn't have money on the
    RIGHT NUMBERS
    Every player that plays the game wants the same thing
    They WANT to win

    LOL , Well OK Mr. Rogers LOL a guy
    certainly needs a , "HAPPY WIN" from time to time
    Some strategies are simply not going to provide enough
    "HAPPY WINS" to make playing worthwhile .

    That , "HAPPY WINS thing was precious
     
    #19
  20. James Hall, Aug 30, 2018

    James Hall

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    I can certainly see how you could form these opinions
    you have , when you play with very little or no hope
    of winning even with a full EXPECTATION of losing ,
    a winning game is oft times difficult to accept.

    but you keep plodding and maybe some day
    you too will have some of those , "HAPPY WINS"
    your buddy speaks so fondly of .
     
    #20