Casino gives The Shooter 5 DICE...Are they Loaded or are they Legit.?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by obie1, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 12, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Increasing the HA on what bets, though? The purpose of my analysis was to show that the simplistic bet-the-Don'ts approach was not the optimal one. The probabilities in the table were the most that could be used and still give the casino an advantage on every bet. Greater bias makes some bets player-positive, and that includes the Don'ts at some point, of course.
     
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  2. $nakeEye$, Jan 12, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Yo Harley and Grizzoola -

    I apologize for the inconvenience that this might afford to you guys -

    I have family / personal issues that I must address post haste, which take precedence over ' fun time ' -

    And , as such , have to postpone my planned " Virgin Venture to Sin City " -

    However, this is hopefully only a temporary setback -

    And we will be up and running in a couple of weeks or so !

    Thank you both for your generous hospitality and perhaps we could re-schedule in the near future !

    $...eE..$
     
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  3. DiceController, Jan 13, 2014

    DiceController

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  4. Southern-Comfort, Jan 13, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

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    Sorry to hear that you can't make Vegas. I was really looking forward to your reaction to it. Make sure that you go soon.
    Anyway, in the meantime, one word.. Biloxi. You know DeMango is waiting!
    http://www.totalrewards.com/totalrewardsair/
     
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  5. Grizzoola, Jan 13, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    Thanks for letting me know, $E$. Hope you get things resolved.
     
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  6. Harley, Jan 13, 2014

    Harley

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    $nakeEye$ .... sorry to hear about your personal situation ... good luck and take care of priorities 1st !!

    Don't worry ... we have the evidence and it is not going anywhere ... but don't take my word
    or Dicenator's word
    or KogaNinja's word
    or AHigh's word
    or Dr. Z's word
    or Howard Rock'n Roller's word
    or SuperRick's word
    or obie1's word
    or SweetRoll's word
    or Jerry Patterson's word
    or Joe Small's word
    or VegasDiceController's word
    or Walt Diem's word
    or Snake's word http://www.littlejoecraps.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=260&sid=d095b3c89375880234ce7c39a005d4d2
    or any other craps player that plays every week
    or even the video evidence .... test it yourself --- observe and chart the dice ... balance the dice

    don't follow the advise of someone who has never put a die in a balancing caliper and refuses to do so just because they have everything to lose if Dice are unbalanced because it would destroy their business model of teaching on-axis tosses
     
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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  7. Southern-Comfort, Jan 13, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

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    I always wondered...
    why don't you just test dice for being weighted the simple way, instead of with calipers that everybody argues that either its being done wrong or you need a $3000 one (that everybody then complains about)?
    why not just put some water in a glass and drop the dice in? Weighted end goes to the bottom.. not bounce upon landing for anyone to claim ruins the test.
     
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  8. Grizzoola, Jan 13, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    Is this now just another superstition: loaded, gaffed, illegit., etc., dice at the casinos? One more thing to worry about in addition to "virgin feminine players" vs. "virgin male players," etc.? So far, no one has presented any credible evidence of this happening, beyond just one case cited some years ago. So, if casinos cheat w/ their dice, why not stacking BJ & other card decks, braking roulette wheels, "fixing" Keno, etc., etc.? The slots are exempt, because everyone knows they are "fixed."

    Then, some on here say the gaming commissions are in bed w/ the casinos. If all this is true, then no one should patronize the casinos. All I've seen on here is speculation, superstition. Maybe something to rationalize why you lose. And, it's odd that obie1 started this thread, the "perennial winner."
     
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  9. Harley, Jan 13, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    I have always wondered why people that wonder just don't do instead of wondering ... have you done the water test ? ... I have with over 200 drops of balanced and unbalanced dice -- it is inconclusive because, among other things the plastic sides act as fins or rudders and alter the path as it drops to the bottom ... just use what the casinos use - a dice balancing caliper, but do it correctly

    ohh, so Slots are fixed, Roulette has doubled the House Advantage by going to Double Zeroes from Single Zero and Black Jack has changed the House Advantage by going to 6:5 pays vs. 3:2 pays and the Casino is absolutely not going to increase the House Advantage on Craps when it has increased the House edge on every other game in the Casino ... yea right ... As SweetRoll posted on Heavy's On Axis Craps message board on December 30, 2013:


    http://tinyurl.com/lhhsdmu
     
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  10. Southern-Comfort, Jan 13, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

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    ok I call BS. Its inconclusive because it didn't conclude what you wanted... exfept that you've never done it. Fins? a box has fins now? Its a matter of falling,, heavy side will go to the bottom first.
    Which, of the six sides are fins? especially since a die will not sink straight down.. UNLESS one side is heavy.
     
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  11. Harley, Jan 14, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    I call your BS and raise it ... you don't understand because you haven't tried it .... try it then come back so we can have an intelligent conversation
     
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  12. Southern-Comfort, Jan 14, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

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    I am not one who remains quit when questioned, and certainly not one who will not admit to being wrong. I just tested the water theory and each die I tested sank straight down, and rather quickly. I would dare to say that unless one was weighted very heavily (probably enough to notice in handling in fact) any would not have enough time to favor the weighted side.
    You win the argument Harley.
     
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  13. Harley, Jan 14, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Southern-Comfort ... thank you, you explained it better than I did !! ... I wanted an alternate test to work too, but the water test is just too inconclusive

    .... I used heavily weighted dice from Caesar's Las Vegas that would rock back and forth heavily on the dice balancing caliper showing absolute imbalance favoring the 5 as the heavy side. However, if I took these unbalanced die and dropped them in water (either starting above the water or just below the water surface), they would glide straight down no matter which side I started with up - 1 thru 6 .... they reacted the same as perfectly balanced dice
     
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  14. Grizzoola, Jan 14, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    All I was going by is previous info that the slots are "set" to have various payouts. "Fixed" was the wrong term. My post basically doubts the arguments re: casinos using unbalanced dice, if you care to read it, again. I was just stringing out the arguments to their logical ridiculousness: Why would the casinos stop at unbalanced dice? Why isn't every game "fixed" in some way, beyond the HA?
     
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  15. Harley, Jan 14, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    DiceController - thanks for sharing these videos .... of particular note is the type of dice they are using -- note the dice pattern and the size of the 1 pip as well as the 2 pips .... These dice are employed in Japan because the Japanese realized that the dice pattern used by western casinos were inherently creating an imbalance with their dice pattern and pip size not being equivalent on opposite sides

    Western dice (as in America) are harder to make balanced because they have 1 pip on 1 side and the same size pip times 6 on the other side .... a 1:6 ratio is always harder to balance with a different material .... the Japanese are smarter with their design which is done solely for the purpose of getting a more balanced cube
     
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  16. Grizzoola, Jan 14, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    Harley: What do you think of this quote from the Wikipedia article, "Dice"?

    "Precision casino dice may have a polished or sand finish, making them transparent or translucent respectively. Casino dice have their pips drilled, then filled flush with a paint of the same density as the material used for the dice, such that the center of gravity of the dice is as close to the geometric center as possible."
     
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  17. Harley, Jan 14, 2014

    Harley

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    Grizzoola - good research, however, like many things written, they are theory only and have nothing to do with reality .... again, you can prove Wiki wrong yourself for most dice ....

    Again, it really depends how much you pay for dice ... not all dice are created equally ... and you get what you pay for .... I have bought so called guaranteed precision balanced dice at $36. a stick only to find a 1 or 2 die in the stick not balanced

    but let's look at Wiki for some cheap dice in Las Vegas:

    1. "Precision casino dice may have a polished or sand finish, making them transparent or translucent respectively." - seriously, some LV casino dice are so cloudy that no light will pass thru it .... the definition of translucent is "allowing light, but not detailed images, to pass through", so this technicality has been stretched to the limit by some Casinos

    2. "Casino dice have their pips drilled, then filled flush" - This was more true in the old days when dice were hand made, but not today with most cheap dice .... take a micrometer and put on the dice, move the dice around inside the micrometer so that the points measured move from the red plastic across to the white pip -- watch as the needle on the micrometer jumps (or digital readings move if a digital micrometer - I have both) If you do not have a micrometer, use your fingernail and move across a die from the red plastic over to the white pip --- feel the bump, it is not a smooth transition or "flush" as Wiki tells us

    3. " then filled flush with a paint of the same density as the material used for the dice, " - the red or colored part is a plastic, the white is a resin ... 2 totally different materials and density can be played with or even worse, hard to match exactly to plastic

    4. "such that the center of gravity of the dice is as close to the geometric center as possible." - the videos done by both AHigh and KogaNinja are proof that the center of gravity does not exist in many cheap dice used in Las Vegas casinos. ... when you have 11:3 ratio of pips, it is easy to have a cube unbalanced ( 5 and 6 on one edge vs. 1 and 2 opposite) ... use a balancing caliper with dice to test yourself (they are readily available on the internet)

    Now here is the key part, there is no law or regulations in Nevada that requires the Casinos to even use the Wiki theoretical guidelines so the Casinos can do anything they wish -- Las Vegas is the Wild, Wild West
     
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  18. Grizzoola, Jan 14, 2014

    Grizzoola

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    Harley: Thanks for expanding on this discussion. You are far more expert on this than I. Anything following is not to dispute either your veracity or your expertise. I'd just like to clear up some further thoughts I have.

    You have far more knowledge of the internal workings of a casino. For example, I know nothing re: how casinos buy their dice. I imagine in great numbers, as I know casinos "retire" dice fairly often. It would appear, then, that the casinos are as concerned about the effects of wear on the dice affecting balance as I would be.

    It seems to me that it would be expensive & time-consuming for a casino to test balance every die it buys, let alone "fix" it, since casinos must buy dice in the thousands, if not millions, every year. Even in fixing, how would casino craps crews know which die is fixed & which not? It's more plausible to assume the casinos just take the rep. of the manufacturer as an indication of the "purity" of its dice and simply put them in play w/o further ado. In that sense, the casinos are as subject to any slight imbalances as the players are. I suppose someone could accuse even the manufacturers of "being in on the scam."

    Besides, the casinos are doing very well w/ their HAs and player losses. Are you saying that fixing dice (or any other casino game) is another reason casinos flourish?

    Finally, in over a year reading craps forums, books, and websites, until this thread, I have not seen any thread or article re: casinos loading their dice. If it were as big an issue as obie1 thinks, there would have been far more discussion of it outside this one thread on one forum. I admit, there may have been discussions before I got interested in craps. But, I'm sure I'd have seen something within the past year, since it would be a very big issue.

    And, since there are no laws/regulations in NV re: quality of dice, it doesn't necessarily mean that the gaming commission & the casinos are in bed w/ each other. It simply may not be the problem obie1 thinks it is.

    With all that said, maybe all you're saying is that there is no die w/ perfect balance. As I said, these are my further thoughts and do not question either your veracity or expertise. I stand to be corrected.
     
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  19. Grizzoola, Jan 14, 2014

    Grizzoola

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  20. Harley, Jan 14, 2014

    Harley

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    Grizzoola - all great queries that could take me days to answer fully ... try glancing thru my website link in my signature for some of your answers and I will try to answer some of your questions as time permits, but I want to spend some time on the tables today as my practice session this morning went well

    I would say that 95% of the casinos change dice at or near shift changes - 3 times a day - every 8 hours ... this makes it convenient for quality control ... but the Nevada Gaming commission told us that the dice are so durable these days that Casinos could keep them in play for 24 hours without any concern as to wear ... Caesar's and Bellagio on the Strip in Las Vegas only change out their dice once a day.

    This concurs with our testing, that normal wear and tear on dice does not effect the center of gravity ... also, a small cancellation stamp on a die made by most Casinos does not effect the center of gravity or imbalance - most cancellation marks do not redistribute mass .... 99% of die that were unbalanced before the cancellation mark retain the same imbalance after cancellation (except those casinos in Colorado, etc. that drill holes all the way thru the die)
     
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