Casino gives The Shooter 5 DICE...Are they Loaded or are they Legit.?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by obie1, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Southern-Comfort, Jan 10, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    31
    The thing that ends up killing me at the craps table is my inability maintain concentration. Going through all the wordy posts a third time, I can only guess you are talking about the lay 9? Whats the payout versus a hop seven? I'm not disputing you is that was what you meant, just trying to understand. Personally I would prefer to lay 9 all day rather than have my fellow players thinking I'm jinxing them with hop seven after hop seven.
     
    #81
  2. Harley, Jan 10, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    Southern Comfort ... you have to make a personal choice -- are playing craps as a social game (therefore worrying about how you jinx your fellow players) or are you playing craps to make money ??

    If you are into craps as a business, then you need to understand that not all unbalanced dice are the same .... for instance why do you think from a business standpoint did SunCruz buy dice from 2 different dice factories ??!! ( Paulson and Midwest ) As a business owner, I try to buy my product from 1 supplier in bulk to get the cheapest price.

    When we Hop the 7s as you suggest, we find out which 7s are dominant during that shift to increase our ROI .... it may be the 6/1 and 5/2s, so we do not Hop every 7 .... but we are starting to see sticks of dice that have 3/4s mixed in with the 6/1s ..... so which 2 unbalanced dice did the player pick up ?

    Did he pick up a die weighted to the 4 and a die weighted to the 6, giving him more 10s than normal and a medium roll that would Kill a Hop 7 bettor

    Now how rich are you with your betting strategy ? ... which betting strategy ?
     
    #82
  3. Southern-Comfort, Jan 10, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    31
    #1 - its a social game, so yes I do prefer the comradarie of my fellow players.
    #2 Every company I've worked for would but supplies from whoever was cheapest at the moment. Also, when large orders are being made by a single purchaser, kickbacks come into play as well.
    #3 I did not say hop A seven,, I said hope THE sevens.. even my formula should have made that clear. If the dice are rigged to force 6-1's.. its pointless unless the 6-1 can be counted on to come relatively quickly... the other sevens will randomly come as well, and they are simply windfalls. as for dice rigged to produce multiple sevens off a stick of 5, I think you are seeing things you want to see. But I don't doubt the possibility, just I can't figure how they could manage that without giving the players an advantage with certain combinations of the dice.
    #4 there ya go, advantage to the player... however, if sevens are rigged to come up more often and consistently than normal, seven is the logical number to bet.

    But back to #1. Anybody trying to make a living off a casino has my respect. I do believe it can be done, but takes a lot of work. I enjoy craps and don't want to ruin it by turning it into a job.
     
    #83
  4. Harley, Jan 10, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    Somebody help me here ...

     
    #84
  5. Southern-Comfort, Jan 10, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    31
    Help Provided..
     
    #85
  6. Harley, Jan 10, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    ok, consider ...

    Or does that stick of dice have 3 fair dice mixed in with 2 bad dice ??!! .... often we see up to 3 unbalanced dice in a stick of brand new casino dice. Which ones did the player just pick up to toss --- Did the player pick up the fair dice .... How do you know ...... how are you going to bet now ??

    .... makes Frank Scoblete's 5-count not so bad after all in certain situations
     
    #86
  7. $nakeEye$, Jan 10, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    998
    Harley -

    Reading into what you are saying -

    And I am MOST certain that you WILL correct me if I am wrong -

    There are biased dice in each and every stick -

    Some biased towards the 5/2 - some the 4/3 - and some the 6/1 -

    THIS is what I take away from your responses to S-C -

    Perhaps I am wrong or missing something somewhere !

    $...eE..$
     
    #87
  8. Sancho Panza, Jan 10, 2014

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    18
    There is only one way to bet on a crooked game. And it's called the don't.
     
    #88
  9. Harley, Jan 11, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    Not always true !! ... Sancho Panza is a casino employee and of course he would want you to believe unbalanced dice is beatable, but the point is that unbalanced dice increase House Advantage unless you know exactly the Bias .... Percentage Dice favor the casino in the long run

    Sancho Panza - some unbalanced dice favor the 7s and YOs which will kill a DP player, so you have to be careful how you play the Don't.

    There are 2 things Las Vegas casinos want:

    1. Dumb players and
    2. Dumber players

    $nakeEye$ ... there are fair balanced dice in quite a few casinos, especially in Colorado where:

    1. They have specific Dice laws and
    2. Their Dice laws are enforced
     
    #89
  10. $nakeEye$, Jan 11, 2014

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    998
    Harley -

    Thanks for the info regarding fair and balanced dice in Colorado -

    I have a brother who resides in Aurora, just outside Denver -

    However - I - do NOT ' Do Colorado ' -

    I " Do AC " and am going to " Viva Las Vegas " in the very near future !

    $...eE..$
     
    #90
  11. Sancho Panza, Jan 11, 2014

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    18
    As wildly wrong as most of the other claims.
    Do you know exactly "the Bias Percentage Dice favor the casino"?
    Oh gee, thanks. I didn't know that after having played 30+ years of craps.
     
    #91
  12. Sancho Panza, Jan 11, 2014

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    18
    I don't need a 7 every roll, just a little bit more frequently than 1 in 6.
    Someone who discerns errors of less than four one-thousandths of an inch should certainly be able to calculate such odds.
     
    #92
  13. Harley, Jan 11, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
     
    #93
  14. Harley, Jan 11, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    Sancho Panza - you are taking my quotes out of context above ... keep them in context, besides the odds question was a rhetorical question

    Another example is just a few years ago (and I am sure you remember this from your ancient days), we would see Don't players (not to much different than yourself) walk into Caesar's LV and Lay $1,000 on the 4 and 10 on every shooter ....... those 4 and 10 Lay players have disappeared with the bad biased dice at Caesars LV -- too many 4s and 10s between those too often 7s to gain an advantage at half pay

    The main problem with unbalanced dice is that you change the Odds of the game so that the payouts are no longer in line with the theoretical pyramid distribution

    All we are asking is for fair balanced dice -- each of the 28 225-Sq Foot cabins on the LINQ Ferris Wheel in Las Vegas are perfectly balanced as they rotate ... why can't we have little balanced dice on the Strip below ??!
     
    #94
  15. Sancho Panza, Jan 11, 2014

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    18
    So in addition to fabricating, you also do forgeries. Nice going.
     
    #95
  16. Harley, Jan 11, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    Sancho Panza - you are taking my quotes out of context above ... keep them in context, besides the odds question was a rhetorical question

     
    #96
  17. six shooter, Jan 11, 2014

    six shooter

    six shooter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    Michigan
    I find it interesting two different Casino's, a total of three times have removed the dice from play after a 5 or 6 point fire bet has been hit. Has any one observed this in any Casino's?
     
    #97
  18. Sancho Panza, Jan 11, 2014

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Harley
    People who have difficulty dealing with the quotation process should refrain, edit or figure out an alternative. As it stands now, the OP is nothing short of incoherent.
     
    #98
  19. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 11, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    4,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    A common belief is that the way to defeat biased dice is to play the Don'ts. The theme of my posts on the "bias dice question" thread was to show that 1) casinos can retain an advantage over dark-siders while increasing their advantage over front-siders, and 2) depending on the type of bias used, the house advantage decreases faster on other bets than it does on the Don'ts, making those other bets a better strategy. The table in my linked-to post shows that if the casino is using dice biased to reduce the probability of the 4 and 3 faces showing, then the optimum strategy would be to Lay no-9 (or no-5, though that was not shown in the post). To answer your question, with the Small 4&3 bias for which the Lay no-9 becomes basically a no-advantage bet, the house advantage on the Hop 7s is 15.913% (vs 16.667% unbiased).

    Different biasing techniques make different strategies optimal. With six-ace flats the Field, because of the increased probabilities of getting the better-than-even-money-paying 2s and 12s, is the first bet to become player-positive. I went back to my spreadsheet for six-ace flats and found that with the maximum bias the casino could introduce and still retain an advantage over the Field, the probability of a 7 went from the unbiased 0.166667 to 0.166995, which still gives the casino a hefty 16.109% over the player who hops the 7s.

    Frank Scoblete has noted that even the most proficient dice influencers cannot defeat the high-HA bets. Hop bets are among the highest HA bets on the table. It is therefore not surprising to see that they still suck copious wind against dice with biases below those even the most naive observer would detect.
     
    #99
  20. Harley, Jan 11, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes Received:
    586
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Area 51
    The Midnight Skulker --- excellent post !! .... however, I would like to note that the probabilities expressed in your table are very conservative based upon what we have actually seen on some Live casino tables .... in other words, the Casinos are using dice that are actually increasing the House Advantage to a much larger degree

    For instance, consider again what Dicenator charted:
    The resin compound (in the white Pips) can be altered to make the imbalance more or less --- just like there are varying degrees of golf balls (even illegal golf balls) http://www2.dupont.com/Surlyn/en_US/products/golfball_resins.html

    The Midnight Skulker - your calculations may represent what odds are available during 1 shift and unbalanced pair of dice, but definitely not what Dicenator charted or what we see in Las Vegas on any given Saturday night or Super Bowl Sunday, etc.
     
    #100