Casino gives The Shooter 5 DICE...Are they Loaded or are they Legit.?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by obie1, Nov 3, 2013.


  1. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Being a retired licensed contractor who performed work in New York City..., it was well known that no Contactor would risk his/her License (which, in NYC was "priceless") by breaking the rules set forth in established NYC "Code Books".

    The inspectors who oversaw the enforcement of these rigid codes were for the most part; good and honorable men and women.

    I believe somewhere around 1988, The FBI stepped in and arrested 52 New York City inspectors after "decades" of collusion and receiving "kickbacks" and "favors" from Contractors doing business with the City of New York.

    I still believe: where there's Money and Man: there is invariably: Corruption.

    That being said, I adhere to what I previously stated:

    The solution is very simple:

    To “alleviate” the fear that many craps players have in their belief that the dice are “Loaded” Why Not use Just 2 Dice ???


    Obie1
     
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  2. rudeboy99, Nov 18, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    An excellent question! I suppose that it's traditional, the shooter being given the opportunity to select HIS choices from the bunch. On a more practical note, occasionally a die will fly off the table into a crowd, and someone will snatch it up for a souvenir before it actually gets located. I've lost a die because it flew into a Pit wastebasket, into the pocket of somebody's sport coat. or someone inadvertently kicked it about a 1/2 mile from where it landed. In these situations the game would come to a dead stop while everyone concerned searched desperately for the wayward die. I saw a die fly into the cleavage of a very well endowed lady wearing a dress with a low cut neckline once...but EVERYONE including the perverts from the Eye knew RIGHT were that one was! lol! :red:
     
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  3. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    In the extremely rare case(s) where the "die" or "dice" go off the table and disappear into the twilight zone..., then of course, the Casino should just bring 2 new dice into the game. I don't see the need for anyone to look for a wayward "die" for more than 5-10 seconds, before deciding to bring 2 new dice into the game.

    Obie1
     
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  4. rudeboy99, Nov 18, 2013

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    Obie1, I think I'm beginning to fail to see the point here. As a player, don't delude yourself into thinking that the smart money boys running the casinos are going to care FA about what you think about the manner in which they conduct Pit procedures, 'cause all the smart money boys do is smile, tell a customer that they'll look into the problem (if it can't be smoothed out quick and easy), and ask if you need another cocktail...and things will keep rollin' along, same as always. ;-P
     
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  5. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    rudeboy99

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with you..., there is little chance that the Casino's "higher-ups" will lift a finger to inaugurate any change, and; will most likely placate any suggestions for improvement to the "status quo" policies presently in place. But then again there is no harm in trying...

    And, who knows; sometimes miracles happen.

    Obie1
     
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  6. boner

    boner Member

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    -------------------------------------------------------------------Yes indeed, I would be very interested in specifics. How can somebody make such a statement without giving details? Sounds like someone who just got sevened-out of his rent money. lol. Anyway, I had a run a decade ago where I placed 650 across the numbers, 325 across the numbers, 30 dollars on each number, etc. I did it 9 times over the course of a long weekend and hit ONE number. That gets expensive and leads one to believe (after the fifth or sixth event) that shady dice may be in play. This was at the local Indian joint which, up to that point, had been very generous. Since that time, the tables have evened out and I have some nice hands between beat-downs.
     
    #46
  7. Sancho Panza, Nov 30, 2013

    Sancho Panza

    Sancho Panza Member

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    Maybe those "several casinos' that "have recently been "CAUGHT"" are not even in the U.S. Or they could be from the multitude of basically unsupervised and unregulated and unchecked Indian casinos. Players in those establishments should be highly suspicious. It will definitely be most interesting to see whether any names are provided and, if so, where those casinos are situated.
     
    #47

  8. Heavy

    Heavy Member

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    The die off the table trick is one of the ways old crossroaders used to get a gaffed die into the game. That's why - when a die is handed back in after bouncing off the table - the boxman gives it s close inspection.
     
    #48

  9. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Thanks to all for your input and feedback:

    The gist of my question and this thread is:

    What can the "Casinos" and/or "The gaming commission" do to “alleviate” the fear that many craps players have in their belief that the dice are “Loaded”.

    My suggestion: Why Not use Just 2 Dice ???

    I thought the “5 different colored” dice would resolve this matter once and for all and that the “Casinos” and “The Gaming Commission(s)” wouldn’t mind. But after reading "Harley's" post, I’m inclined to favor “just use 2 dice in the game”. Which, would support Heavy’s analysis; that any decent craps player would recognize a trend and adjust their bets accordingly.

    The solution is very simple:

    To “alleviate” the fear that many craps players have in their belief that the dice are “Loaded” Why Not use Just 2 Dice ???

    Obie1
     
    #49
  10. Grizzoola, Dec 20, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    Mind explaining why 2 dice are better than 5 dice, differently colored or not? I suppose fiddling around w/ them before a toss to see how they come up would be better. How are you going to tell if they are loaded or not before you toss them?
     
    #50

  11. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Grizzoola:

    It goes back to what Heavy said in his previous posts: a decent craps player would recognize fairly quickly if the dice are favoring a certain number or numbers and adjust his/her bet accordingly.

    Of course: if the dice are "legit", then everybody is "Happy" (satisfied): The players, The Casino and the gaming commission, since the dice are coming out "random" as they should.

    Thus: alleviating the fear that many players have that the dice are "gaffed".

    So, yes 2 dice IMHO would solve the problem for all parties involved.

    Obie1
     
    #51
  12. $nakeEye$, Dec 20, 2013

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Grizzoola -

    GOOD question -

    Answer me this -

    How are you going to tell if they are loaded or not AFTER you toss the ?

    $...eE..$

     
    #52
  13. Southern-Comfort, Dec 20, 2013

    Southern-Comfort

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    Five dice eliminate a lot of overhead problems for the house as well. If one "goes missing" theres no wait while someone runs to the back for another pair. One casino I frequent, if one goes off the table, its not added to the other four until next shooter anyway, that would require a new pair. Five different colors, that might cost more to make, and would also serve those replacing legit dice with gaffed as they could tell by color which they introduced, to make removal again easier.
    As a side note, I have two pairs or dice from cica-1950s Sahara. One is a legit pair, one set has only three numbers on each die (I forget the numbers). They gaffed pair are actuatlly better manufactured, better material than casinos used then.. but in a game, you can't tell the difference. Cheaters have always been "pushing" the technology being used to catch them.
     
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  14. Grizzoola, Dec 20, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    Obie, you still didn't explain WHY 2 die are better than 5. This is what's so exasperating about your posts. You talk over and around an issue, instead of hitting it dead on. You get 5 die; you select 2 to toss. Seems to me, you get 5 die, one of which is illegit, you may not select it. But, if you get 2 die, one could be illegit. Maybe you're saying that getting 2 die instead of 5 makes it more obvious that a die or both die are illegit? But, what prevents someone from toying w/ the dice before tossing them to see if they're loaded or not, whether they are part of 5 or just 2? To me, it doesn't matter if you're presented w/ 5 die or 2. WHY is being presented w/ 2 die better than 5 die?

    And, what should a shooter do if he sees the dice are loaded before he shoots? Announce it to the table & show it is loaded? I suppose a savvy shooter could know this, just keep quiet & handle the situation to his advantage & to hell w/ the rest of the players. If gaming commissions, casinos, and shooters are in on the fix, who cares? Is that it?
     
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  15. packerfan, Dec 20, 2013

    packerfan

    packerfan Member

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    Forget the gaming commission, the biggest risk a casino would have would be a disgruntled former employee going public and announcing that he knows his ex bosses used crooked dice and he is a witness and perhaps a participant in the ruse. The news media would go bonkers, the feds would probably get involved, charges filed, jail time handed out, exorbitant fines levied and class action lawsuits by cheated players would almost certainly bankrupt the casino. It's a well known fact that the house has the advantage over the player no matter what.

    Who needs to cheat when you know you're going to win?
     
    #55
  16. DarkSiderRidah, Dec 20, 2013

    DarkSiderRidah

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    My sentiments as well. GEEZ, LETS GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC NOW.

    I would pay this thread no mind if I had not been witness myself to "strangely excessive" amounts of 6/1 seven outs a few times. After observing this and after hearing and reading about this happening to other dice players I have developed a type of ritual when I receive the 5 dice the stick pushes towards me. Other players at the table sometimes ask me what it is that I do when I fiddle with the dice. I always just candidly respond "I'm filtering out loaded dice". They usually chuckle and say no more. Although, I'm not filtering them OUT of the game I'm filtering them IN to use them against the casino.

    My Method:
    When the 5 dice are pushed towards you with the stick, snatch all 5 dice in your palm (If you have really small hands this may be a problem) and toss them all towards you so they hit the pyramids on the back wall in front of you.
    Let them settle.
    Search for sets/pairs of 6' or 1's.
    Pick up the two dice showing 6's or 1's.

    I ALWAYS do this, and there have been times where I'm tossing 2's & 12's at a suspiciously high clip.

    This method does annoy some crap dealers for various, always strange, reasons. I'd say I received gruff for doing this from about 15% of the places I've played at. I've been told horsepoop like "Take ONLY two dice!" or the craziest one I've been told "The dice cannot come forward at all or we'll consider it a roll" . So I couldn't bounce the dice off the pyramids on my side of the table. I thought, "Are you serious kid!?" you know what a dice throw looks like. Im fiddling with 5 dice, tossing them towards myself! I was shocked but mostly annoyed by that dealer not wanting me to check out those dice. I dont stay very long at those type of tables.

    -DSR
     
    #56

  17. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Yes Grizzoola:

    You correctly answered your own question:

    "...Maybe you're saying that getting 2 die instead of 5 makes it more obvious that a die or both die are illegit..."

    Sometimes the answer is so obvious I think someone is "pulling my leg...", even though that may not have been the case in this instant, but yes: with 2 dice (whether one die or both are gaffed) it will become apparent in a relatively short time.

    Obie1

     
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  18. Grizzoola, Dec 20, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    Ok, Obie, in both cases, whether 5 dice or 2 dice are presented, the shooter has 2 to start. In both cases, the shooter must do something to test the dice, does he not? I maintain that it does not matter. You, however, have failed to show it does matter.

    Another poster shows how he tests the dice before shooting & just 2 days ago at a live table, I saw a guy do the same thing before selecting his dice. I thought it a little odd, but just assumed this was his way of selecting dice. I didn't know, until reading that post that this is what the guy was doing.

    Maybe there are other ways of quickly testing dice before shooting, or to notice during play if the dice are loaded. As a newbie, I've just assumed I'm playing at a table with fair dice. You also have not cited a significant number of cases where a casino has been called out for playing with loaded dice. And, other posts have said casinos stand to lose far more than they would gain by using loaded dice.
     
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  19. Sancho Panza, Dec 20, 2013

    Sancho Panza

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    The fact stands that a far-out assertion was made and challenged. All standing for several weeks without one iota of substantiation.
     
    #59

  20. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Grizzoola:

    The reason why it is easier to detect "gaffed" dice when using only 2 dice is that: during the first 36 rolls if a pattern of any numbers appear above the norm, then this would mean that the 2 dice may be "gaffed". If there is no apparent deviation from the norm during the first 36 rolls: then the dice are most likely "legit". No one could tell for sure without actually testing the dice which is not going to happen. I never once saw a Casino hand over a pair of dice (or a stick of 5 dice) to a player who felt the dice were loaded. They never have and they never will. For that matter: I never once seen anyone from the gaming commission go to a craps table and take out the pair of dice in play (or a stick of 5 dice) for testing.

    At my seminars I instruct all attendees that "you can't go wrong by presuming the dice are "gaffed" until proven otherwise...". By charting the numbers it becomes apparent in time if any numbers are coming out "exceptionally" more frequent than the established norm.

    Keep in mind: if you have 5 dice in the game: one can presume that if the dice are "gaffed" then most likely it would be 2 dice favored to produce a certain number (let's say an ace) and the other 3 dice "gaffed" to produce a certain other number (let's say a "6")and if someone were to pick one die each of those dice: the percentage chance of the sum of those 2 dice producing a "7" is increased. If for some reason the shooter was to pick a similar pair of "gaffed" dice, then the possibility of aces or 12s appearing are substantially increased (depending on what 2 dice are selected out of the 5 offered).

    Of course: if in time the charting of the numbers indicate that dice are producing numbers that are appearing within the norm, then dice are more than likely "legit". That being the case: everyone is happy (satisfied)... The player, the Casino and the gaming commission.

    Don't forget the gist of this post (see opening post) is not that the dice are "gaffed" but, what could the Casinos and/or gaming commission do to alleviate the fear that some players have the dice may be loaded.

    Obie1
     
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