Can you add to your Come Bet when it wins?

Discussion in 'Advanced Craps' started by ChumpChange, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. ChumpChange, Nov 27, 2018

    ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Member

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    I've been noticing the dealers at my local casino will allow you to keep a Come Bet up (with odds) when it wins. Can you press your Come Bet, and/or the odds when this happens? On WinCraps there's that option too. If I want to add $2 to my Come Bet when it wins, I can do that. If my Odds win, I can add $5 to that.

    I'm of the opinion that winning Come Bets should be turned into a Place Bet, so they don't get hit by a come-out 7, and you can hold that number out there for another win.

    I guess I could keep the Come Bet up but add $10 odds on each win. If it gets swept away in a 7-winner I could re-establish a Come Point and re-affix odds that I had on before the tumult. I get my odds back on a 7-winner, but the Come Bet is lost. So I'd like to focus on lower Come Bet amounts, and higher odds on a progression.

    If I have a $6 Come with $60 odds on a $5/10X Odds Table, I should be able to add $2 to the winning Come Bet that's up there, and add $20 odds also to make it an $8 with $80 odds come bet on the same point.

    I'm playing on WinCraps now. I have a $6 Come Bet with $15 odds. If I win, I add $5 to the odds. The 5 & 9 points are different and $16 odds get $4 added to them, then $5 on a 2nd win.
    I'm adding a Come Bet each time a Come Bet wins. But if I get a roll that wins my Come Bet, I could either take my winning bet down and re-add the odds on the same point, or just add $6 to the Come Bet point so now it's $12 with $20 odds. I think I'll take down my winning bet and re-add the odds.

    I won $556 in 66 rolls on WinCraps. I had odds of $30 on the PL, $20, $50, $60, and $20 odds on my Come Bets when the 7-out came. 7-winners wipe out the points I had up. Pressing on Place Bets seems to be a better way to go.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  2. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 27, 2018

    The Midnight Skulker

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    In my experience this is the most popular way to stay on a number after winning a Come bet that had it as a point. You tell the dealer as he/she is about to pay you, "Down and back for [amount desired]."
    This also works of course but you are in effect making another bet (called a Put bet), not adding to an existing bet. In your example, as the dealer is about to pay and return your winning Come bet you would tell him/her, "Take it to 8 with 80." With greater than 4x odds (5x on 6|8) the Put pays better than a Place, but you are forfeiting your 2:1 advantage on the comeout by skipping it and the flat portion of a Put becomes a contract bet.
     
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  3. ChumpChange, Nov 28, 2018

    ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Member

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    I've been betting $15 PL and Come, with $30 Odds. There's been a serious lack of good luck and I lost $1500. I changed my Come Bets to a Place Bet on a win and adding $10/$12 on a progressive, then putting out another Come Bet (which usually got beaten down with 3 craps in a row then a 7-out). Maybe I need to put out a Come Bet after every other win on the Come Bet/Place Bet; or only have one Come Bet that can lose on a 7-winner.

    I won $500 back by just focusing on the PL and 1 Come Bet.
    My PL Progression is $15, $20, $25, $30, $40, $50, $30, $40, $50, $50
    My Come Bet has no progression and remains at $15.
    My PL Odds bet progression is $30, $40, $50, $60, $80, $100, $60, $80, $100, $100
    My PB progression is the same as my PL Odd Progression but the first PB bet starts at $40, except for the PB 6/8 which is $42, $54, $66, $90, $114, $66, $90, $114

    I won over $750 back by hitting the PB5 8 times. Some casinos don't let you buy the 5, or they may have a $50 minimum to buy the 5.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  4. goatcabin, Nov 30, 2018

    goatcabin

    goatcabin Member

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    Hi, Van, long time.
    I want to clarify this option of making a Put bet, compared to a new $8 come bet with $80 odds if a come point is established. The essential point is that a Put bet is an even-money bet with a disadvantage up front, because no matter what the point, the seven is more likely to show. The "mirror image" of this is to make a Don't Pass bet after a point has been established, which the casino will NOT let you do; this is cheating, called "past posting".

    To illustrate, suppose you just won a $6 come w/$60 odds on 5, and you tell the dealer, "Take it to 8 with 80." The dealer will give you $8 of the $96 you just won and put the $8 + $80 on the 5. So, what's your expectation? There are 4 ways to roll a 5, 6 ways to roll a 7, so:
    4 x 128 = 512
    6 x -88 = -528
    --------------------
    -16
    For every ten of these, you expect to lose $16, so the ev is -$1.60.
     
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  5. goatcabin, Nov 30, 2018

    goatcabin

    goatcabin Member

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    It looks like I ran up against a character limit, so:

    Similarly, if your $6+$60 win was on six, you'd have:
    5 x 104 = 520
    6 x -88 = -528
    -------------------
    -8
    For every 11 of these, you expect to lose $8, so the ev is -$.73.

    Finally, if you just won on 4:
    3 x 168 = 504
    6 x -88 = -528
    --------------------
    -24
    For every 9 of these, you expect to lose $24, so the ev is -$2.67

    The expected losses are based solely on the flat part, which, as the Skulker points out, is a contract bet and cannot be taken down.

    OTOH, if you just take your winnings and make an $8 come bet, taking $80 odds if a point is established, your ev is just -$.11. Of course, you lose the ability to pick your number and this is also a contract bet.
    More next post
     
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  6. goatcabin, Nov 30, 2018

    goatcabin

    goatcabin Member

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    If you make 60 of each of these, what is the expectation?

    Put 5, $8 + $80, 60 bets
    ev -96, standard deviation $820

    Put 6, $8 + $80, 60 bets
    ev -$43.64, SD $741

    Put 4, $8 + $80, 60 bets
    ev -160, SD $935

    Come $8, 10x odds, 60 bets
    ev -$6.79, SD $670

    Many players, in comparing place or put bets to come bets, overlook the effect of the comeout roll.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
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  7. DeMango, Nov 30, 2018

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Ahhhh, sanity returns to this board!
     
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  8. TDVegas, Nov 30, 2018

    TDVegas

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    I would absolutely concur.
     
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  9. James Hall, Nov 30, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    You and many others
    Thre is much to be said about the importance of the come out
     
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  10. James Hall, Nov 30, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    I would like to see him post more
    he has a handle on the math
     
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  11. von duck, Nov 30, 2018

    von duck

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    This is really getting "good" huh sir? :)
     
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  12. James Hall, Nov 30, 2018

    James Hall

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    I hope it gets better
     
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  13. James Hall, Nov 30, 2018

    James Hall

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    let's not overlook the value of being
    able to remove place bets before the appearance of the , "7"
     
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  14. Freddyy, Dec 2, 2018

    Freddyy

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    You need to count the numbers of time you miss a payment cuz you removed your bets too then.
    Planning to remove your bets means you don’t collect enough and press too much. Need to be balanced.
     
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  15. James Hall, Dec 2, 2018

    James Hall

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    All these guys keep talking about the value of the come bet.
    It's one roll among many and I only want one , I don't want
    to make points , I just want to roll a lot of numbers.
    Actually on a couple of my betting strategies ,
    once I get to a certain point I don't take my bets down.
    I just rack the wins as they happen till I seven out.
    By that point I am racking a sizable amount every time
    the dice hit the table.
    If I ever pull all my bets , it is because my toss is wonky.
    My betting strategies all have rules , when to press and
    when to rack profit. I can;t press too much I can only press
    what I have just won / house money so the loss of a press
    oe not come out of my original bankroll.
     
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  16. twodicebilly, Dec 6, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    Alan

    There are a good number of players that put great worth in the edge on the come
    out roll , however if you are playing a 10x odds game your come out roll with an
    $8 bet had an edge, however then the bet with $8 flat and $80 in odds does not have an edge.

    You indicated this …….The expected losses are based solely on the flat part, which, as the Skulker points out, is a contract bet and cannot be taken down.

    What is the expected loss for the entire session when you are taking 10x odds because as you and I both
    understand you can not predict when you would remove those odds.

    I think the come bet can be a good bet in certain situations, but not all.

    TDB
     
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  17. Mssthis1, Dec 6, 2018

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    I feel a 10X or better game is the perfect place for come bets as long as you're going to take the appropriate odds.

    A $10 flat $100 odds 5 or 9 pays $160 while a $110 place bet pays $154. If you want to catch the first number play place to come.
     
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  18. TDVegas, Dec 6, 2018

    TDVegas

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    The expected loss on an odds portion of the bet is $0....regardless if it is 2x, 5x or 10x.

    The expected loss on the $8 come x 60 wagers is $6.77. The expected loss on the 60 wagers with 10x odds ($80) is $0.

    The true power of the come bet is the come out roll. Enormous edge for the player by casino standards. I assume that is what Alan is referring to when he says place bettors "overlook" the effect of the come out roll.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  19. twodicebilly, Dec 6, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    missthis1

    I am not saying you should not use a come bet, I am saying it is complete nonsense to
    use only the flat bet odds to indicate the worth of a come bet.....

    You make a $5 come bet and hit the 7 for a win of $5, then place $50 in odds
    and the number is a 9 and you dont hit it, you lost $55. The odds on you hitting
    that nine are no better than if you placed a place bet and maybe worse, because
    now you have to hit that nine a second within that roll to win your bet.

    I simply say be honest about what the come can and cant do.

    tdb
     
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  20. TDVegas, Dec 6, 2018

    TDVegas

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    Kind of a misnomer, IMO. A come bettor is not placing a bet on the 9. He is making a come bet wager which can win or lose on the next roll (2-3-7-11-12). If a 9 is rolled, the come bet wager moves to the 9. He NOW has to hit the 9 ONCE to win the bet.

    If a 4-5-6 is rolled and a player is on the 8-9-10 and decides to shift his bets to 4-5-6 because he wants to "bet what the table is giving"....does he now say to himself I have to roll ONE of those numbers (4-5-6) TWICE to win? I think not. He needs to roll it once to win.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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