Burden of Proof

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by kaysirtap, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Southern-Comfort, Jan 17, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Let me make my statement clearer to you by quoting the last line from my post...
    "Its far more important to me for the world to believe I can’t, than for it to believe I can. Doesn’t matter who has the “burden” of proof.. if they want proof its up to them"
    I stated also, that if they felt to burden me with proof, none would be withcoming, for exactly the reason in my last line. Fine, I can't... have a nice day.
     
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  2. bek423, Jan 18, 2012

    bek423

    bek423 Member

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    That's why I love you, basic. :)
     
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  3. kaysirtap, Jan 18, 2012

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    When the existence of dice control is discussed, it is often the DI believer that is asked to prove that it exists. The reason I chose "Burden of Proof" as the title for this thread is because if the burden of proof were to somehow be shared between both sides of the argument, I would want to know what would be enough to convince someone that their opinion about dice control was wrong. The question wasn't aimed specifically at either the believers or non-believers. I was interested in both sides equally.

    When it became clear to me that many people were unable to think of even the craziest situation in which their minds could be changed, I decided to create the other thread to find out how willing people are to change their beliefs about dice control. Again, I was interested in both sides equally.
     
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  4. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 18, 2012

    The Midnight Skulker

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    IMHO a simple and effective alternative to recording throws with a high-speed camera would be to calculate the probability of getting an observed deviation from expectations by random chance. Of course the number of throws necessary to give an acceptable level of confidence would depend on the level of influence the shooter has: the more influence, the fewer the trials necessary to detect that influence. IIRC I once figured around 18,000 rolls (three weeks of 8-hour sessions each of 45 minutes tossing with 15 minute breaks in between) to show that an increase to 17% sevens (from 16.67%) was due to influence and not random chance. (Sorry, I forget what confidence level I was using.) The problem of course is getting anyone to partake in a controlled experiment and risk 1) convincing the casinos that dice influence is a reality, and 2) getting banned for being successful.

    As for proving it cannot be done, I do not think that can be done. One cannot prove a negative, which I contend is why the burden of proof is always on those claiming something exists. Just because I cannot influence the dice does not mean nobody can.

    Another thought on the subject. Building a machine that can produce non-random throws is known as "proof of concept", but does not necessarily prove that it can be accomplished by humans. And as above, unfortunately, the failure of a machine to produce influence only proves that that machine using that technique cannot influence the dice.
     
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    yacraps likes this.
  5. JGreen6918, May 26, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    Why do you think this is a dumb question?
     
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  6. DeMango, May 26, 2012

    DeMango

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    As I said in another thread, I do not suffer fools. Even to the point where BS777, a non believer or possibly agnostic, was thinking this man was a casino spy. (His question about Zender, Forte)
     
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  7. Southern-Comfort, May 26, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Let me give you an example. For instance, did you realize that as you are driving down the road the top of your tires are going faster than the bottom of your tires? How do they stay togethert like that?
    Thats a dumb-donkey querstion. If someone presents appearance as fact and then wants you to prove, or disprove, their fact rather than explain the appearnce... they are very frustrating (and when they persist they become known as trolls)
     
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  8. JGreen6918, May 26, 2012

    JGreen6918

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    I don't think this is the case. You are talking about someone specifically asking for hard evidence to support that someone else is right or wrong, but the question here seems to be asking about what could change your own mind. Depending on what your answer is, one might be able to guess why it is you believe what you do. If you require something extreme like mind erasure, then maybe you've seen some evidence that is very very convincing. Before any of us formed any beliefs about DI, we must have each experienced something that made us either believe in it or not believe in it. To me, the question asks not what those experiences were or what evidence may have been presented to you, but what could make you believe the opposite.

    What I find interesting about the question is this: Is the answer to what can change a DI believer's mind the same answer as why do non-believers not believe? And is the answer to what can change a non-believer's mind the same as why believer's believe in the first place? I wish I knew.

    Personally, just off the top of my head, the Myth Busters might be able to change my mind.
     
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  9. Southern-Comfort, May 26, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    They wouldn't be interested unless they could put explosives in the dice.
     
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  10. $nakeEye$, May 26, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    " Explosives in the dice " - " magnets in the table " -

    Maybe not such bad ideas !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  11. James Hall, Aug 10, 2018

    James Hall

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    This guy for some reason doesn't want people talking
    about Dice Influence / Control
    WHY???
     
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  12. James Hall, Aug 10, 2018

    James Hall

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    And the secret kept safe WWHHHOOOOPS! !
    How many others on this forum
    are trying to KEEP THE SECRET from the general public
     
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  13. twodicebilly, Aug 11, 2018

    twodicebilly

    twodicebilly Member

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    james

    For the guys that live in the large gambling centers, where they see so many class players
    and the dumb things that happen when classes take their students to the tables, I imagine
    they would rather there were no classes, no one used dice control or talked about it.

    I can see that, but I stay away from those places, I hardly ever see a so called DI .

    MY honest opinion based on what I have seen if I owned a casino, I would have the biggest
    sign I could find saying dice setters welcome, I would have a roll counter in the middle of the
    table and would have constant small things couple of times a week. First dice setting makes
    money for the casino, second that little competition for longest roll of the day takes the
    spot light off the casino advantage.

    Demango is a mystery to me, but he must have his reasons and just like I expect TDV to respect the
    way I look at craps, I need to respect his.... I must have wronged the guy in some other life is all
    I can see....but I sure dont know when that would have been.I did meet one guy at Biloxi last year
    that was with some dicesetters and asked if I had ever taken a class from Howard, I said no just
    LJ and GTC and worked with KOKOninja ( which I enjoyed )...the guy never talked to me again for
    4 days and we were at the same table. So I guess shit happens.

    tdb
     
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