And the BEAT goes on!

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by eagleeye2, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. eagleeye2, Mar 5, 2018

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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  2. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    Well, these figures seem pretty strange. But, more strange than the statistics, is what the report defines as "hold percentage". We went through this last time, but let's try again. "Hold percentage" would be the difference between, the money in the box, and the chips removed from the table. The report defines the hold percentage, as the amount of all money gambled, that was retained by the casino. How would anybody know, what the total amount "gambled" was? What the report is calling hold, would actually be the "realized" house edge. I would question any information in this report, if they cannot even get something that simple correct. When you consider the sample size, the fluctuations, are very hard to believe. These figures are for every table in the state, for a period of an intire year. I would like to see the what information was compiled, and how.
     
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  3. basicstrategy777, Mar 6, 2018

    basicstrategy777

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    Hold = The percentage of drop that is won by the casino is referred to as hold. Hold represents the percentage of chips purchased by the customer that is won back by the casino.

    The fluctuations you refer to are the result of how markers are handled when determining the drop. The formula used to determine drop has a substantial impact on the hold percentage as well as the comparability of hold statistics for casinos in different gaming jurisdictions i.e Nevada and New Jersey.

    You should reconsider challenging UNLV.....and saying they can't get something simple, correct.

    777
     
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  4. Mssthis1, Mar 6, 2018

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    They just write it that way because they do know exactly what was wagered on the slot machines and all other video machines. Instead of a long spiel with a bunch of explanation that nobody will understand they use a more generic term.

    Craps hold will continue to go up because of the carnival bets. As the repeater bet gains in use and popularity I wouldn't be surprised to see craps surpass roulette as far as percentage of hold and then level out somewhere around 20% unless they come up with more new ideas which I heard from a little bird are in the works. .

    if they ever go to RFID chips they can calculate craps as "coin in" like they do on slots. If they changed it to "coin in" thet would change the terminology for the casinos cut to "payback" like they do on slots. You would then see the numbers for craps drop to somewhere around 5% perhaps less.

    If slots were reported like table games people would quit playing them. The "house hold" on slots I would imagine has to be well North of 50%.
     
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  5. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    Read the first page, very carefully, and see if your definition of "hold" matches their definition. I agree with your definition, but I don't think that that is the way they defined it. I do not see any mechanism, that would allow them to determine how much money was "gambled", they would have to count every bet.
    How are markers handled?
     
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  6. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

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    Bul
    Bullshit, slots have absolutely nothing to do with it. Yes electronic slots keep a running count of $ wagered. Hold has nothing to do with how much was wagered, it is the difference between buy-in and cash-out. I don't know why they write it that way, but it seems to be an incorrect definition, period!
     
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  7. Mssthis1, Mar 6, 2018

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    "the portion of money
    gambled that the casino retains"

    Buy in for $100 cash out for $80 and the casino retained $20 or 20% the way I look at it. Until they adopt RFID technology for table games that's the only logical conclusion.

    Go to the state government web site if you want more detailed info.

    Here's the one for Iowa. https://irgc.iowa.gov/publications/gaming-revenue
     
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  8. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    Buy-in is not necessarily "gambled" aka, put at risk. Hold is the amount of buy-in retained by the casino, has nothing to do with what gets wagered.
     
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  9. eagleeye2, Mar 6, 2018

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    basicstrategy777,

    That is the way that I see it also!

    Others are attempting to complicate a relatively simple happening!

    One must consider that any wins by players are thus included in the ""% DROP""

    eagleeye2
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  10. eagleeye2, Mar 6, 2018

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    Thus as % Drop continues to go up, Casino's are somehow extracting more $$$ from CRAPS players than in past years!



    DATA FOLLOWS:
    http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_t...date&utm_campaign=March2018&utm_medium=email

    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!

    eagleeye2
     
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  11. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    I have no explanation for the shape of the graph, except that it pretty much reflects what the economics were, for same years, pretty close.
     
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  12. lone irish digit, Mar 6, 2018

    lone irish digit

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    This is Barney,

    It is most obvious that an increasing number of innumerate players of the craps have been moving to the Las Vegas in recent years and becoming professional players of the craps and also driving the Ubers. They are not betting what tables is giving and making bad bets like the come bet and passline bet.



    Thank you very much
     
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  13. von duck, Mar 6, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    It's the % of "HOLD" that keeps going up, not necessarily "DROP". Probably has a lot to do with ATS, and FIRE bets being relatively popular, even with pretty high H/E. :cool: are you in any way immune, to this trend?
     
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  14. eagleeye2, Mar 7, 2018

    eagleeye2

    eagleeye2 Member

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    By Definition as 777 SAYS ~ ""Hold = The percentage of drop that is won by the casino is referred to as hold. Hold represents the percentage of chips purchased by the customer that is won back by the casino.""
    ,
    von duck asks ""are you in any way immune, to this trend?""

    Immune is a very devious word, but my answer is YES!

    I continue to see more Casino's employing "Biased Dice" & as I monitor Die Throws prior to placing my $$$ on any Craps Table, I avoid those Casino Craps Tables, that are out to CHEAT the Craps Player "By Increasing House Advantage, through employment of Biased Dice"!

    I also believe that the employment of "Biased Dice" is primarily responsible for Casino's Increasing their "HOLD", as documented in the Charts & Data presented Herein!

    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!
    And the BEAT goes on!

    eagleeye2
     
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  15. von duck, Mar 7, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    I know what what "hold" is, my assertion was that UNLV did not give the correct definition. Their definition would amount to relived H/E.
    I also believe that there is something wrong with the way the dice fall, but I'm OK with it, as far as I'm concerned. Biased dice however can't explained the large swings in the baccarat graph. The sample size is so large, that it doesn't seem likely. I would need to see how the data was compiled, to even guess at the answer. :cool:
     
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  16. basicstrategy777, Mar 7, 2018

    basicstrategy777

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    VD.....further explanation of Drop and Markers:

    The amount of cash, cheques, and markers in each game's drop box is called drop. Although original markers are never deposited directly into the drop box, the amount of markers written for a given table are theoretically in the drop box and are evidenced by the marker issue slips. For the purpose of computing win for each table, markers are treated as if they were included in the drop.

    Nevada gaming regulations require that statistics be maintained for each table and type of game, by shift, by day, cummulatively month to date, and cummulatively year to date. To provide this data, the casino must remove the drop boxes and tabulate the results for each shift. If a shift is to determine how much is won or lost, the amount of cheques started with and the amount of cheques the shift ended with must be determined. Information relavent to changes in the cheques maintained on each table is obtained thru the use of the opening and closing inventory forms.

    Determining win: Win is determined by subtracting the cheques missing from the game from the table's drop. In order to calculate the total cheques missing from the table, the amount of cheques the table started with, the cheques the table ended with, the fills to the table, and the credits from the table must be known. The formula for determining win is as follows:

    currency in drop box + checques in drop box + markers issued in pit - markers redeemed in pit = drop

    beginning inventory of cheques + fills - credits - ending inventory of cheques = cheques missing

    drop - cheques missing = table win


    Regarding issuance and redemption of markers, Nevada gaming regulations permit casinos to choose how they will allow issuance and redemption of markers; a casino can implement the use of a marker system or a name credit system. With a marker system, markers markers can be both issued and redeemed at the table....Under a name credit system, markers can be issued at the game, but can be redeemed only at the cage.

    In Atlantic City, the only system casinos are permitted to use is the name credit system. In Nevada, approximately 95% of the major casinos operate under a marker system. When markers are redeemed at the pit, they can be redeemed either with cheques or csh. In practice, over 90% of pit redemptions are in cheques.

    Using the win formulas above....When comparing both marker systems, although the table win remains constant, there will be a difference in the drop and ending chip inventories, between the 2 methods.

    Statistical Drop..... A marker system allows the player to " buy back" ( redeem) previously signed markers in the pit. The buy-back of drop results in a much higher hold percentage for a casino than if a name credit system were in use. Consequently, Nevada regulations require each casino to determine statistical drop in order to maintain a more accurate hold percentage. Statistical drop results from adding currency and cheques in the drop box to marker transferred to the cage and markers repaid in the pit with cheques.

    The formula used to determine drop has a substantial impact on the hold percentage as well as the comparability of hold statistics for casinos in different gaming jurisdictions, as I said before.

    777
     
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  17. von duck, Mar 7, 2018

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    This is all good info, and MsPee "likes" it, so you know your grammatically correct. My issue from the beginning, is UNLV's, definition of "hold" which I believe to be absolutely incorrect. Check it out, it's in the first paragraph of EE2's link. Get back on that, if you would. :)
     
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  18. Bases loaded, Mar 7, 2018

    Bases loaded

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    They said 'maximum' and 'minimum' hold. That would be 100 per cent and 0 per cent.

    What they meant was 'high' and 'low' hold.
     
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  19. von duck, Mar 7, 2018

    von duck

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    "Hold" could actually be a negative number if they had a net loss. What is this a reply to?:confused:
     
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  20. basicstrategy777, Mar 7, 2018

    basicstrategy777

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    To avoid perturbation, I suggest you contact UNLV ( the author) and ask him your question.; in this way, there will be no guessing.

    777
     
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