An oldie that never came under discussion

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    1,684
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA
    Move back the walls AND LIman step back.
     
    #21
  2. KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    1,684
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA

    Good points gargoil. I kind of figured that things would twist this way, and I absolutely agree with you and with the bottom line. If you can somewhat consistently roll the numbers you are on, and even better the more the merrier, you are a successful shooter - regardless of how you accomplish it. We all do this sometimes. Some more often than others.

    That said, I am just trying to show that there is more to the concept of "on-axis" than meets the eye, and that the way it seems to be commonly "accepted" has no basis in reality. It is only one part of the "complete" discussion of DI, and it is the only part of the concept that I personally am arguing against, simply because there is definitive proof to be seen if you know what to look for.
     
    #22
  3. Twelve4s, Jan 6, 2017

    Twelve4s

    Twelve4s Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,009
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Gender:
    Male

    They say a witch can bring out the best in a man.
     
    #23
  4. KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    1,684
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA
    yes, yes, and I thought she said "all in good time my little pretty, it will happen a little over 2% of the time."
     
    #24
    Linaway likes this.
  5. DeMango, Jan 7, 2017

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    369
    Gender:
    Male
    Nope, happens 44.44% of the time. But go to the casino and try it for yourself! Use the hard ways set and try an on axis toss. If 98% of the time the results include a 1 or a 6 or a combination of both then I will; A) kiss your ass and B) Borrow all I can and make money, serious money off your rolls. Until the casino throws us out.
     
    #25
  6. KokomoJoe4, Jan 7, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    1,684
    Location:
    Cranberry Twp, PA
    If you use only one dimensional tunnel vision to assume that because you see a one or six on top on EITHER die that your outcome can NOT be in the same HW pre-set you used and that you are not on-axis, your count of on-axis results will be higher than 2% but still much lower than the 44% you are looking for.

    In fact, when you disregard the specific sequence that you preset in the x-axis and allow any of its possible arrangements to count as on-axis, expectation will for "on-axis" will rise to 1/6, 16.7%.

    Starting from a 2 top/4 looking, 2 top/4 looking preset, which result is on-axis?

    5 top/3 looking, 3 top/2 looking

    4 top/2 looking, 4 top/2 looking


    None, one or both? The one that looks better is actually worse, isn't it? Think permutations. You need to be able to count past 36.
     
    #26
  7. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Koko is right.That 44℅ on axis is wrong.Why? You just look at the top 2 faces not the 2 faces looking at you.Linaway explained it.Yes you may have started with the 2- V but one die may have turned clockwise or counterclockwise and now you are in a different set like say the Hardway with different 7- out parameters.So it may look like a hard 4 but may not be.Finally on board!
     
    #27
    Linaway likes this.
  8. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Gargoil said he watches what his does.Impossible unless you have slow motion viewing.He reads the top 2 faces and sees if it is on or off axis without any refused to the X axis- dice turning clockwise or counterclockwise like a top would do.That is impossible to pick up.Just shoot and do not worry how the dice get there.
     
    #28
  9. Edward-ky, Jan 7, 2017

    Edward-ky

    Edward-ky Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kentucky
    So I am wondering when you say on axis are you saying the dice stay on axis throughout the entire toss to final resting position or if the end result is a on axis result then it is on axis?
     
    #29
  10. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Edward KY
    That would be a true on axis toss which happens very rarely
     
    #30
  11. tabletop123, Jan 7, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    To think that dice will hit the table, & the pyramids, consistently & NOT "flip over" is a pipe dream! It's hilarious that skilled shooters THINK that their Dice travel down the table without flipping over off of the pre-set!

    Sure, your dice can end up EXACTLY as you set them prior to launch off, but MORE TIMES THAN NOT, your dice end up going through all kinds of gyrations IF they end up EXACTLY as you configured them before the toss!

    Dice rolls are chaotic, & in MY opinion, there is a slight amount of influence in the chaos ( contradictory, I know) that allows your dice to tumble, bounce, yaw, back to the original number that you pre-set for!

    It's as they say: "It doesn't matter HOW you get there.......AS LONG AS you get there safely!

    The biggest misconception about "On Axis" is the "Blanket Roll", wherein the dice roll SMOOTHLY in one line without EVER flipping over!

    This does NOT occur with two razor sharp dice being tossed on a Hard or soft Casino table surface! On Axis is very rare ( in terms of the dice maintaining axial roll throughout the initial table contact, & bouncing, tapping, grazing off of the pyramids) & Casino dice are meant to tumble, & yaw!

    It is their NATURAL order, & this is why a lot of skilled shooters have abandoned the "On Axis" theory!

    As far as purposely trying to toss "Off Axis".........why re-invent the wheel? Off Axis is gonna occur naturally! No need in forcing something thats gonna happen anyway!

    Just toss in YOUR special way, & hope the devil doesn't appear to spoil the party!
     
    #31
    hartzehn22 and Linaway like this.
  12. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Good post Top !!
     
    #32
  13. The Comeback Kid, Jan 7, 2017

    The Comeback Kid

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Messages:
    902
    Likes Received:
    437
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    Wow, to someone who throws with his eyes closed,
    I now see so clearly, how much I will never know.

    tumblr_oeeg4rA4yj1r9gff0o1_1280.jpg
     
    #33
    Onautopilot and lone irish digit like this.
  14. DeMango, Jan 7, 2017

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    369
    Gender:
    Male
    Of course not. The results are what matters. What the casino pays. I see members are joining the shortest of all buses left and right. We now have the CT contingent!
     
    #34
    lone irish digit likes this.
  15. lone irish digit, Jan 7, 2017

    lone irish digit

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,699
    Likes Received:
    1,249
    The whole concept of Dave getting on the bus must put the fear of God into the minds of the short bus crew.
     
    #35
    HornHiYo likes this.
  16. DeMango, Jan 7, 2017

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    369
    Gender:
    Male
    Lets clear this up. No one thinks this way. Quote please if you can find it. This subject is as old as the hills, pre Katrina for sure. This was discussed on the old Dice Setter board. The consensus of opinion rested on final result. Point of influence may have been the term. How the final result got there was due to influence, not the exact set of motions, which cannot be duplicated exactly. So we have influence, not control. That is why years ago the term Dice Controller was dropped. But I see SuperRick started another thread about that. SMH
     
    #36
  17. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    DeMango
    Had a talk with Linaway and he helped me get a better picture.Dice On Axis schools neglect the X axis - so does Bone Tracker truth be known.Now I still believe in DI .In my case a lot of times my die may go a little off the X axis but at the end of a toss it is harmless - just a top turning lol
     
    #37
  18. tabletop123, Jan 7, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    Sure, Demango! The experienced tossers know this, but what about the Novice tossers that DONT know!

    Did NOT Edward-Ky ask the question if Dice REMAIN on Axis throughout the roll?

    Demango, you, among "others" have a solid grasp on how this Di'ng thing works, simply because you've been at it long enough! Some ARE "wet behind the ears" & need a little guidance!
     
    #38
  19. Dave G Ct, Jan 7, 2017

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Top
    Are you serious! Getting advice from someone who has an endless supply of "fairy dust" and can see " Unicorns" in a casino should be the last person giving advice.
     
    #39
  20. tabletop123, Jan 7, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    Well, I just stated my opinion! Nothing more, & nothing less!
     
    #40
Reminder: This is the Dice Influencing section.