An oldie that never came under discussion

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Being not much of an electronics guy, I do not know how to link an old posting in here. Thanks to whoever shows how, but I do not want to know. :confused:

    Just ran across a question I posed about a year ago on the unlikelihood (read impossibility) of 44.4% of all dice tosses being on-axis. Unfortunately for me, no one responded to the question, which I am re-introducing simply in an attempt to get a logical response or two. Here goes:

    Say you are shooter who always comes out of the 2V with the hope of tossing a bunch of "on-axis" fours and tens. Let's also say that your starting set of choice is always 2 up/4 looking at you and 2 up/ 6 looking. Just for the hell of it, let's say the shooter is Dave, with $5 on the line and $5 on both the 4 and the 10.

    Now suppose that your result is a hard four. Winner, winner chicken dinner. 2 up/3 looking and 2 up 4 looking.
    That's $9 and more to come.

    (1) Are you on-axis?

    (2) Do you have a primary face hit?

    The answers to these questions are actually (1) NO and (2) YES.

    How is this possible? Isn't it required that you be on-axis in order to have a primary face hit? After all, there are only 36 possible outcomes, and 16 of these are defined by the concept of PFH and on-axis, correct?

    Ponder on that.

    Note: I am NOT a DI basher. In fact, I suppose that "influence" is theoretically possible. I am however a strong believer that the entire concept of on-axis is grossly misunderstood, and that people who "sell" it are therefore shysters. Unless however it is more a case of stupidity than intentional misrepresentation. IOW, they don't know what the fuck they are talking about.
     
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  2. gargoil, Jan 6, 2017

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    2 reasons why you would get this.
    1- The dice could "wobble" in the air causing one or both to get off axis. You would still get 2 primary out of four but the other two will change.
    2- The dice stay together in the air but on landing one die will turn on it's side and travels. Again you would still get the 2 primary but the other two will be the cause of off axis.

    A DI (depending on table conditions) can use that knowledge to their advantage. You need to be able to follow the dice in the air and see what they do once they land. How big of a splatter zone you get and a lot more.

    I hope that helps.

    Now some on this forum will say I am full of shit. They may be correct. I do need to go use the restroom. ;)
     
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  3. Linaway, Jan 6, 2017

    Linaway

    Linaway Member

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    KOKO,

    Primarily in answering the scenario, proprietary information would be revealed. Then LID would be all over it. I must back off. Had you gotten into your last disk, you would see why. Call me if you want my answer.
     
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  4. tabletop123, Jan 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    I will take door number two for $2,000.......Don't know what the fuck they are talking about! HOWEVER, that statement is NOT directed towards my good buddy.......Gargoil!
     
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  5. tabletop123, Jan 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Even though we get paid on top numbers, & NOT the three dimensional state of dice, to be TRULY on axis, the dice need to rest in the axial array that was set before the toss!
     
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  6. DeMango, Jan 6, 2017

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    This is of course where we differ. Not you, the folks who look at array, not final result. Final result, what the casino pays. Random is 44.44% on axis. Results, not how it got there. What the casino pays. The sum total of however the dice got there. What the casino pays. Your set, your delivery system, the action of the table on the dice. What they end up with. What the casino pays.

    Trying to make this rocket science. It is of course, but some in Kansas can't see the forest for the trees. Once again, it's what the dice end up, and what the casino pays.
     
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  7. gargoil, Jan 6, 2017

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    Can I get an Amen on this??
     
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  8. HornHiYo, Jan 6, 2017

    HornHiYo

    HornHiYo Member

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    In all the years I've played I have seen casinos call "no roll" for a number of reasons I.e. short roll, in the wood, too tall to call, no backwall etc, but never have I seen a casino call no roll because the dice are not on axis.
    Casinos payout and take in based solely on the top number.
     
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  9. DeMango, Jan 6, 2017

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    Kinda like Stephen Hawking. Sets off with the premise that there is no God. Well explain the Universe, Stephen, everything has a cause. So many years ago he stated the The Law of Gravity was the cause of the Universe. Problem,um what caused the law? Now he agrees there has to be a cause. Some people are just like that. I think one in Kansas is one.
     
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  10. tabletop123, Jan 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Okay, you guys win! I will cry U.N.C.L.E. out of respect for Linaway! The true explanation is on CD, & I am QUITE certain that he wouldn't want it explained Pro Bono!

    However, top numbers rule!"This is what the Casino pays on, & Demango is correct......It doesn't matter HOW you get there........AS LONG AS YOU GET THERE!

    However, Mr. Demango is wrong about the One Die thingy! Tossing only one die DOES indeed tell you A LOT about your influence ( or lack thereof).

    Sure, you'll get different results tossing two dice as opposed to one. You have to "think outside the box" when ATTEMPTING to influence a Dice roll!

    Experimentation is the key, & when performed correctly........It reveals things that are truly amazing!
     
    #10
  11. Linaway, Jan 6, 2017

    Linaway

    Linaway Member

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    Tabletop123,

    NO, NO, NO, do not give up. You are correct with your original analogy.The 44.44% people are not teachable. This all has been explained numerous times and they still can't get around the use of the number 36. Their equation is in error and has been shown why before. Then 16 cannot be used

    Demango cannot compete with this guy from Kansas. He didn't listen to the BS that MP, Heavy, GTC, Parr and anybody else you want to name.

    Then the 16 variable numbers in the equation. They equate to precisely ONE SINGLE AXLE VARIABLE.

    36 equates to that many total AXLE VARIABLES. 1/36*100 is 2.78%, not 44.44%. You people cannot get it through your head you're dealing with PERMUTATIONS, you cannot divide permutations by 36 die faces or by 36 ways numbers can be displayed. APPLES N ORANGES!

    16*36=576 total permutations. 16/576*100=2.78% ON AXIS. 576-16=560 permutations on their respective axle variables where all 35 of them are remaining.


    Bone tracker apparently is not seeing this or the programs users.

    Thank you Old Top for your protecting proprietary information. Again, don't give in to those unteachable.
     
    #11
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  12. tabletop123, Jan 6, 2017

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Not conceding! Just don't have time arguing back & forth! Trust & BELIEVE that I know the material contained in the CD! No need to toss expertly,when you know what I know!

    Cats are skinable a variety of ways! Lol
     
    #12
  13. KokomoJoe4, Jan 6, 2017

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    Of course the casino pays on what is seen on top. That is NOT the issue. Nor is it my point to say that some people do not shoot well, they do.

    My ONLY point is about "on-axis". It ain't happening.

    If the dice guru's are teaching how to shoot to win, then all is fine with me. I will not pay for the lessons and I will not condemn them for advertising their skills.

    All I am saying is that if their explanation as to how their method "works" is by keeping dice on-axis, they are a wrong.

    Since making numbers you are sitting on is the goal of the game, it does NOT matter how you get this done. Just get it done.
     
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  14. gargoil, Jan 6, 2017

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    It is happening but only a few people can do it. However the point I was trying to make is that you can have success using other methods. Saying on axis ain't happening is not true.
     
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  15. lone irish digit, Jan 6, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    Say you are shooter who always comes out of the 2V with the hope of tossing a bunch of "on-axis" fours and tens. Let's also say that your starting set of choice is always 2 up/4 looking at you and 2 up/ 6 looking. Just for the hell of it, let's say the shooter is Barney, with $5 on the line and $5 on both the 4 and the 10.

    Now suppose that your result is a hard four. Winner, winner chicken dinner but with Barney's excellent vision he noticed that the dice upon landing and hitting the back wall smashed into each other and each did 20 complete revolutions around their vertical axis and ended up with 2 up/4 looking and 2 up 6 looking


    (1) Are you on-axis?

    (2) Do you have a primary face hit?

    (3) As the Wicked Witch of the East said,"What difference, at this point, does it make"
     
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  16. James Hall, Jan 6, 2017

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    the bottom sentence is where it's at , "JUST GET IT DONE" is the operative thought there , Where the two sides of this debate actually separate is in that one segment .
    "GET IT DONE" , There are two trains of thought there , some believe in THE TOTAL RANDOMNESS aspect that is , "WHATEVER IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS GOING TO HAPPEN"
    while others make an effort to change the outcome to any degree possible by imparting whatever affect they can,
    they make a concerted effort to change the random nature of the dice
    if the 6 continues to come up 6 times in 36 rolls at least they are trying , they are not simply accepting what happens without trying

    The things we do here in Mesa we call Square to Square , it is working pretty well a lot of the time
    We WILL NOT accept the premise that there is JUST NOTHING WE CAN DO TO CHANGE OUTCOMES
    We have seen positive results , it's not easy , it takes time , effort and energy but we get results
     
    #16
  17. Twelve4s, Jan 6, 2017

    Twelve4s

    Twelve4s Member

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    All she wants to do is party!

    IMG_5883.JPG
     
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  18. lone irish digit, Jan 6, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    I can't believe you made a feeble attempt at photoshopping my picture with the Witch. The real photo is shown below:




    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Twelve4s, Jan 6, 2017

    Twelve4s

    Twelve4s Member

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    Sorry, it's all about the details. Won't happen again.
     
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  20. gargoil, Jan 6, 2017

    gargoil

    gargoil Member

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    Koko I wanted to clarify what I posted earlier. I don't know why people are sometimes hung up on terms (On axis, Off axis, this, that, etc.). We are unique individuals and we all have different habits and different ways to accomplish certain things. I know for a fact there are a few players that can throw the dice on axis successfully. However it all depends on table conditions. They also can throw off axis. Again it depends on table conditions.

    Now here is my advice to you. It doesn't matter how YOU throw the dice as long as YOU are finding success in it. If you tell me I do a ballet twist before throwing the dice and I have good success with it then my answer would be great job. As long as you can go back home and look at yourself in the mirror and you know you are not telling stories. You see there are people on here and other forums who are useless when it comes to the game and throwing dice but yet they feel the need to come here and brag. They know they are lying to us and themselves but at the end of the day they are only hurting themselves.

    We are ALL here on a virtual platform. DOES IT REALLY MATTER if I say something and someone doesn't believe me? So again on axis / off axis it doesn't matter. Are you doing something that is a success for you. If not ONLY YOU can fix that. You have to look at what you are doing and work on it. Is on axis happening? Yes. Is off axis happening? Yes. Is luck happening (Someone shakes the dice and throw)? Yes. You just have to decide what is best FOR YOU.

    Good luck at the tables this year and may all your tens be hard ways.
     
    #20
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