All Tall Small/Fire Bet

Discussion in 'Prop Bets & Side Bets' started by Mike Errickson, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. Mike Errickson, Apr 7, 2017

    Mike Errickson

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    I was just wondering which casinos on the Strip currently offer All Tall Small, and which offer Fire.
    Also, are the minimums for these specific bets more than $1 anywhere? I ask because i recently ran into a casino in Michigan that was running $5 minimum for the fire bet
     
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  2. Twelve4s, Apr 7, 2017

    Twelve4s

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    Welcome to the forum Mike!

    I'm sure you'll get your answer soon enough, but some members have posted that the Fire bet is disappearing from many Vegas tables due to the high royalty fees and lost income due to delays when they have to get out the tax forms when someone hits the 6pt fire bet. They also have to review the tape of the whole hand to insure all points were made. I've never been Lucky enough to hit a 6pointer. Recent posts about All Tall Small indicate that bet is available on the strip. Check the trip reports section for more info.
     
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  3. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    Welcome to the forum! Don't know if this will help any, but a quick search turned it up, there may be other better info out there though. I just typed in..."Las Vegas casinos offering the fire bet" on a google search.




    The Fire Bet in Craps – Odds, Payouts, and a List of Casinos that Offer It


    [​IMG]
    The Fire Bet Can Make an Exciting Game even More Thrilling

    By Steve Beauregard


    When the table is good, craps is an exciting, seat-of-your-pants thrill ride. Somehow, they’ve figured out a way to make the game even more exciting with a longshot side bet called the “Fire Bet.”

    A fairly recent addition to the green felts in Las Vegas and beyond, the Fire Bet is a small side bet you place in hopes of the shooter making four or more unique points. If he or she does, the payoffs can be huge, as a shooter who makes 6 unique points before crapping out results is a Fire Bet payout of 1,000 for one. I want to emphasize the “unique points” section of the previous sentence.

    Here’s how it works:

    Prior to a new shooter, you toss the dealer a Fire Bet amount. The minimum is almost always $1 dollar, while the maximum is typically either $5 or $10.

    (Go here to read about the best places to play craps in Las Vegas)

    Winning or losing on the come out roll has no effect on the Fire Bet. In other words, say there’s a new shooter, and you make a $5 Fire Bet. If the shooter rolls say, a 3, and you crap out, you will lose your pass line bet of course, but the Fire Bet will remain. It will stay there until the shooter establishes a point and then either craps out, or rolls four or more unique points.

    Once the shooter has established a point, the Fire Bet is in play. If she or she makes four or more unique points, you will be paid on the Fire Bet. Keep in mind, they have to be unique points.

    A shooter who establishes a point of say, 8, then shoots a 9, makes his 9, shoots a 10 on the Come Out and then hits his 10, has made 3 points. If he then rolls and shoots an 8, and makes his 8, the Fire Bet is still in play, but does not pay out as he has only made 3 unique points.

    In order to make the minimum Fire Bet payoff, he would have to establish a unique point (in this example, either the (4, 5 or 6), then make the point.

    (Here’s some guys hitting a 6 point Fire Bet at the new O’Sheas at the Linq in Las Vegas)





    So basically, you, as a Fire Bet bettor, want the shooter to ideally make all six different points, the 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10. If done so, you’ll will probably already be making a fortune on the regular bets you made during this hot roll, however those gamblers who made the Fire Bet will be further enriched by the following payouts:





    Fire Bet Payout
    4 Unique Points pays 25 for 1.

    5 Unique Points pays 250 for 1.

    All 6 Unique Points pays 1,000 for 1.



    According to Mark Bollman, author of the book, “Basic Gambling Mathematics: The Numbers Behind the Neon, the odds of hitting any of the Fire Bets are pretty slim. Here are the percentages each Fire Bet will be hit:

    A 4 Number Fire Bet will hit 0.88% of the time, or 1 in 113 times.

    A 5 Number Fire Bet will occur 0.16% of the time, or once every 610 times

    Lastly, a 6 Number Fire Bet will happen 0.0162% of the time, or once every 6,156 shooters.

    So if you bet $1 every single shooter, (theoretically), you would win the 6 point Fire Bet once every $6,156 bet. The problem is that you would be paid $1,000 for winning.

    Casinos offering the Fire Bet in Craps

    Casinos are always mixing up their games, so it’s hard to keep tabs, especially since some casinos are removing the Fire Bet in exchange for another prop bet, the “All Tall Small” bet.

    In March of 2016, Caesars Palace and most of the other casinos in the Caesars Entertainment chain switched from Fire Bet to All/Tall/Small. Other casinos, such as the Venetian, have a repeater side bet, rather than a Fire Bet.

    As of September 2016, Paris, the Cromwell, and Planet Hollywood all still had some tables with a fire bet option.

    (Go here to learn how to play craps)

    The Fire Bet is not offered at MGM Resorts casinos. It is, however also offered at the following Las Vegas casinos, (on and off the Strip): The Downtown Grand, and the Plaza Hotel and Casino downtown, along with the Gold Coast, Cannery, Eastside Cannery, the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino, and the Rampart Casino JW Marriott.

    Other local Las Vegas casinos with the craps’ Fire Bet include all of the various Stations casinos: Aliante Station, Boulder Station, Fiesta Henderson, Fiesta Rancho, Green Valley Ranch Resort, Palace Station, Red Rock Resort, Santa Fe Station, Sunset Station and Texas Station.

    [​IMG]
    The Fire Bet is offered at Stations Casinos in Las Vegas


    Outside of Las Vegas, you can find the Fire Bet at the famous Mohegan Sun and various Indian tribal casinos in the East. Many casinos in New Jersey and Pennsylvania offer the Fire Bet, and my understanding is that they all have a $5 maximum bet. Horseshoe Cleveland (a Caesars Entertainment property) is among the many Caesars properties spreading the bet.


    According to the “You Can Bet on That” podcast duo of Mark and Dr. Mike, (an excellent podcast by the way), casinos like Harrah’s Kansas City have the Fire Bet, albeit in a slightly different version. There, the 4 point Fire Bet pays 40 to 1, rather than the standard 25 for 1. The house edge, however, is made up by paying a person who wins a 6 point Fire Bet only 500 for 1, rather than the more standard 1,000 for one.

    Others, like the Horseshoe in Southern Indiana reportedly differ from other casinos by offering a maximum Fire Bet of $25.

    Some other tidbits about the Fire Bet:

    A Fire Bet cannot be taken down after a shooter has established the first point.

    On a table with a standard Fire Bet payout, (1000 for 1 when making 6 unique points) the house edge is 21.27%. (Photo courtesy of the Stations Casino Press Release blog).



    Related Posts:



    © 2017 - Gamboool!

     
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  4. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    I've ask the question before,but never got the answer I was looking for. What are the odds of making 6 to the fire. I did a quick calculation on once and came up with 8K to 1, the easier way, 45K to 1, the harder way. Any of you "Number Crunchers" know the answer? As long as we're talking odds, what about all,tall and small, anybody know the numbers for either end of that bet?
     
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  5. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    See My above post.
     
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  6. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    I like to do math, but mostly that which I can readily do in my head, or a quick pencil and paper thing......so I just usually search google, and lo and behold, there are a bunch of really smart mathematicians that have already done the numbers for me. Being on the lazy side, this works great for me. :)

    Just type in...."What are the odds for......?", and hit search.
     
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  7. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    Who the hell wrote this thing, "3"? Is a point? Only in crapless craps. I would not trust these odds either.
     
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  8. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    Looks like a slip of the pen to me....but the math looks right. Double check it if you want.

    But I fixed it for him anyway. :)
     
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  9. Twelve4s, Apr 7, 2017

    Twelve4s

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    You're certainly not a lazy poster JB. I can't attest to your other habits.
     
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  10. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    Yea, I've been accused of over posting before. :)

    My laziness is mostly related to not doing work that has already been performed by someone more competent than myself at doing it.

    I don't generally build a bridge next to one that is already in place, and serving its purpose quite well. :)
     
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  11. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    On a very quick calculation, the very best that you could enter the last phase of 6 to the fire, le. you've already made 5 numbers, would be trying to land on 6 or 8 and then make it. The odds of landing on 6, 5/24, x the odds of making 6, .45454545. About 10.5 to1. This would be the best odds to go from to 5 to6 , and the least likely route, the dice would take. Calling 3 a point is much more than a slip of the pen, it is a very good indication of TOTAL INCOMPETENCE. I do not believe that the information provided, can be excepted as fact.
     
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  12. lone irish digit, Apr 7, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    If you go over to the gray board (I can't remember the name or link), Rick, Supperick has a lot of great information about current Las Vegas casino stuff. Since he may or may not post here, maybe someone from the new Las Vegas Craps Association or whatever it may be called now could provide Mike some good and current Fire Bet information in Vegas.
     
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  13. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    Go to the Wizard of Odds site, he will have the correct calculations there for you. But the guy that wrote the article I posted did not do the math, he quoted a mathematician's calculations. I trust those numbers....mainly because I have little interest in trying to prove them wrong since I do not play the fire bet. :)
     
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  14. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    The odds of 6156 to 1 , sound about right to me, for doing it the easiest way, which would be outside in. This is also, the least likely way, the dice would bring it to you. It's about 5x harder to do it inside out, by my calculations. I believe it to be a calculus problem, because of the many routes it might take, I do not know much if any calculus.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2017
  15. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    I have seen the calculations, and the explained solution....but I didn't pay any attention to it. The only number I was ever interested in was the negative EV of the total bet......20-25% depending on the different casino payouts.
     
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  16. TDVegas, Apr 7, 2017

    TDVegas

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    http://gamboool.com/the-fire-bet-in-craps-odds-payouts-and-a-list-of-casinos-that-offer-it

    If you do some general Internet search terms "ATS bet in Vegas" or "fire bet in Vegas"....you should get some decent info.
     
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  17. lone irish digit, Apr 7, 2017

    lone irish digit

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    Barney just did a 6 point fire bet calculation on his supercomputer and it came out to .000162434749269826 or 1 in 6156.3181800374305570800626160095 so that means this Steve guy was almost right after all since Barney's computer is never wrong.
     
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  18. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    Somebody said that some casinos were dropping the fire bet because it shut the table down to pay the bet off, 6 to the fire. This is ridiculous. If 6 to fire hits every 6150 shooters, and a table runs at 15 shooters an hour, that is about 400 hours, before a 30 min. shutdown is required. That's less than 2 shutdowns a MONTH. How much money did this bet make in a month, to pay for 1 hour of shutdown? Give me a break, the fire bet very easily covers the shutdown, many times over. I still would never play it, by the way.
     
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  19. Onautopilot, Apr 7, 2017

    Onautopilot

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    I might go up to the casino this week and play the fire bet.....I just started doing my taxes, and the bottom line doesn't look all that good.

    Either that or buy a few lotto tickets.

    The IRS has be by the short hairs this year. :)
     
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  20. von duck, Apr 7, 2017

    von duck

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    How many times have you seen 6 to the fire, when you were playing on the table. Me, once, and I'm the one who threw it, I had no $s on it. Seen it done about 5 times.
     
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